Author Topic: Video Game Thread 2.0  (Read 1516782 times)

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Art Vandelay

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Re: Video Game Thread 2.0
« Reply #1815 on: February 24, 2013, 05:29:49 am »
Fair enough.

Offline chitoryu12

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Re: Video Game Thread 2.0
« Reply #1816 on: February 24, 2013, 06:44:17 am »
I just tend to have a bit of an issue with the clumsy horse controls for RDR. Especially when you want to turn your horse 180 degrees from a standstill in a hurry and it decides to shoot forward and run into a wall instead.

I really think more games need Euphoria, though. Only a handful of games have used it (mostly Rockstar games), but I haven't found a case where it ever detracted from the game. Too bad that Indiana Jones game ended up fizzling into terribleness after they canceled all the current gen versions. It was set to have Euphoria and focus on the fistfighting.
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Offline ThunderWulf

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Re: Video Game Thread 2.0
« Reply #1817 on: February 24, 2013, 07:52:12 pm »
So I recently picked up my pre-orders of Dead Space 3 and Crysis 3.

Dead Space is amazing and is much more reminiscent of the first game, which is good because the second one was kind of lack luster in comparison in the horror department.  I'm completely stuck on one area though.  I keep getting almost done with what I'm doing, but then get destroyed by a swarm of small fast necromorphs every single time.

Crysis is graphically JAW DROPPING as usual.  However, in games like Crysis, Dishonored, etc., I tend to prefer the stealth route.  I always play games on the normal difficulty the first time through, but it's pretty bad how easy stealth is in a lot of parts of the game.  They've made the enemy AI a lot more aware to sounds and stuff, but they are mind numbingly stupid sometimes.  I was stealthed at the top of a staircase at one point, picking them of with the bow for like 5 guys in a row and they just kept running up the stairs not realizing I was RIGHT THERE.
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Offline Witchyjoshy

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Re: Video Game Thread 2.0
« Reply #1818 on: February 24, 2013, 08:00:48 pm »
What do you think about games that offer a stealth option but then make it almost useless outside of certain quests designed for it?

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Offline chitoryu12

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Re: Video Game Thread 2.0
« Reply #1819 on: February 24, 2013, 09:05:05 pm »
One of the biggest problems with video game stealth, and in turn one of the first obstacles developers need to overcome before stealth can seem truly natural, is the reaction to unusual situations. Enemies in almost all games will react to bodies, but often refuse to consider WHY there's bodies there and will simply charge headlong into a hallway even if there's a literal pile of corpses at the entrance. They may even continue to run in like lemmings after seeing several people get shot in the head immediately upon popping up around the corner.

Games really need to have their AI react better to the player's capabilities and recognize when a pile of bodies is a bad sign. I mean, think about what YOU would do if you were a guard or soldier and every time someone went to climb a staircase, their corpse tumbled back down. You'd probably just blindfire and throw grenades wildly upstairs and refuse to ever expose yourself until you were totally satisfied that the sheer level of firepower you poured into the room had rendered it relatively safe to try and clear. Even if you didn't actually see anyone die and you just happened to come across a bunch of corpses with bullet holes in their heads in the exact same spot, you'd probably figure that it wouldn't be a good idea to hang around and you'd REALLY want to call for backup.

Also, any game that has guards ever drop to the lowest alert level as soon as they think the threat is gone. "Oh, the man in the steampunk mask with a sword who just threw a bomb down a hallway hasn't been seen for a few minutes. Guess it's safe to holster my pistol and take a nap on the couch." Ha, no. It'll probably take DAYS for the facility to calm down enough for people to stop demanding passwords from other guards at random to check if they're actually an assassin in disguise, or move around without open carry of their weapons.
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Offline Witchyjoshy

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Re: Video Game Thread 2.0
« Reply #1820 on: February 24, 2013, 09:14:21 pm »
To be fair, there has to be a certain amount of AI stupidity for stealth-based games to even work.

Though a logic based system based on corpses and perhaps how they were killed would be neat.  Like... "Oh, I see all of these corpses suffered from burns in a medieval setting.  I should employ stealth myself and make good use of cover."
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Art Vandelay

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Re: Video Game Thread 2.0
« Reply #1821 on: February 24, 2013, 09:27:38 pm »
I would imagine it's really fucking difficult to get the AI right for stealth to feel good in even the most linear game. As I recall from the first three Splinter Cell games, the AI was still quite complex. They'd see/hear you at certain distances and certain levels of light/background noise, if they saw or heard you in some confined area like a vent, they'd run to cover the entrances rather than losing interest as soon as they lost track of you. If you did manage to lose them, they'd patrol a lot more aggressively and they'd especially keep a close eye on any nearby choke points on the map. Bear in mind, these are some of the most linear (good) stealth games I've ever played. You could imagine a more open world (or god forbid, a full on sandbox) or non pure stealth game, programming an AI that respond like that to stealth, without the benefits of a linear game where it's feasible to give them very specific context-based reactions and on top of everything else they need to do, I think it's safe to assume that it's not even remotely feasible.

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Re: Video Game Thread 2.0
« Reply #1822 on: February 24, 2013, 11:04:17 pm »
I know that in Thief, if an enemy has spotted you before, they're more likely to react to glimpses of you than dismissing them as hallucinations.  And their reasons for giving up generally boil down to "Too much effort" or "He's probably a mile away by now"
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Offline ironbite

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Re: Video Game Thread 2.0
« Reply #1823 on: February 25, 2013, 12:29:04 am »
Stealth in video games also needs to be better the "crouch down and YOU'RE INVISIBLE!"  Looking at you Fallout and Skyrim.  Though Fallout does have Stealth Boys but what does Skyrim have as an excuse?

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Offline chitoryu12

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Re: Video Game Thread 2.0
« Reply #1824 on: February 25, 2013, 12:37:19 am »
Well, dynamic lighting is improving by leaps and bounds. As long as the game can detect differing light levels, it can determine how dark the shadows are in a particular area to figure out how hidden the player is.

There can also be other options for realism regarding light. Sudden changes in intensity, for instance. This was actually simulated in ARMA II (or it may be exclusive to Dayz), where entering a dark building from the sunlight would lead to everything looking much darker than it really is until your eyes adjust, while exiting the building into the sunlight temporarily causes a glare that makes it harder to see. This could be coded with essentially a sort of timer that lowers the NPC's ability to detect you for a certain number of seconds upon entering an area with radically different light levels.

One thing you DON'T see often, though, is how standing in the light makes dark areas look darker. Someone under a streetlight will be unable to see into the shadows around them because of how it kills their night vision, while the people in the shadows can see everything around them (plus the guy standing under a massive light source). The only game I've seen touch on this was Splinter Cell: Conviction, and I don't know if it was actually simulated in gameplay beyond Sam mentioning it to his daughter during a flashback.
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Offline ThunderWulf

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Re: Video Game Thread 2.0
« Reply #1825 on: February 25, 2013, 01:49:05 am »
When it comes to stealth though, the Crysis AI can sometimes be a special kind of stupid.  I've gone into cloak right in front of them WHILE they're shooting at me/. Instead of keeping shooting for a few seconds or lobbing a grenade in my direction, they stand around for a couple seconds like "Where'd he go?"  before fully reacting.  And the bad guys KNOW I have a nanosuit that can cloak.
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Offline StallChaser

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Re: Video Game Thread 2.0
« Reply #1826 on: February 25, 2013, 02:11:37 am »
There's a fine line between making stealth difficult/realistic and impossible.  Making those things too realistic could kill the fun factor of the game, which is more important.   I could see doing it in a semi-realistic way, where blowing your cover would completely change up how the scenario plays, because all the guards would be on high alert, shift to more defensive positions, no longer patrol alone, etc.

Offline Askold

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Re: Video Game Thread 2.0
« Reply #1827 on: February 25, 2013, 02:56:15 am »
There's a fine line between making stealth difficult/realistic and impossible.  Making those things too realistic could kill the fun factor of the game, which is more important.   I could see doing it in a semi-realistic way, where blowing your cover would completely change up how the scenario plays, because all the guards would be on high alert, shift to more defensive positions, no longer patrol alone, etc.

...I think that some games have had that. Get seen once and some objectives and enemy patrol routes change.
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Offline Vypernight

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Re: Video Game Thread 2.0
« Reply #1828 on: February 25, 2013, 05:01:49 am »
One of the biggest problems with video game stealth, and in turn one of the first obstacles developers need to overcome before stealth can seem truly natural, is the reaction to unusual situations. Enemies in almost all games will react to bodies, but often refuse to consider WHY there's bodies there and will simply charge headlong into a hallway even if there's a literal pile of corpses at the entrance. They may even continue to run in like lemmings after seeing several people get shot in the head immediately upon popping up around the corner.

Games really need to have their AI react better to the player's capabilities and recognize when a pile of bodies is a bad sign. I mean, think about what YOU would do if you were a guard or soldier and every time someone went to climb a staircase, their corpse tumbled back down. You'd probably just blindfire and throw grenades wildly upstairs and refuse to ever expose yourself until you were totally satisfied that the sheer level of firepower you poured into the room had rendered it relatively safe to try and clear. Even if you didn't actually see anyone die and you just happened to come across a bunch of corpses with bullet holes in their heads in the exact same spot, you'd probably figure that it wouldn't be a good idea to hang around and you'd REALLY want to call for backup.

Also, any game that has guards ever drop to the lowest alert level as soon as they think the threat is gone. "Oh, the man in the steampunk mask with a sword who just threw a bomb down a hallway hasn't been seen for a few minutes. Guess it's safe to holster my pistol and take a nap on the couch." Ha, no. It'll probably take DAYS for the facility to calm down enough for people to stop demanding passwords from other guards at random to check if they're actually an assassin in disguise, or move around without open carry of their weapons.

In Hitman Blood Money, when guards encounter a dead body, one guard takes it away in a body bag while the rest do a basic search of the area.  Then they return to guard duty.  This includes guarding a house even though the house's owner is now dead.

In H Absolution, they do a more-extensive search of the areas and even get jumpy if they see blood.  Of course, they can be distracted by radios, bottles, running behind them, etc. 
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Offline chitoryu12

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Re: Video Game Thread 2.0
« Reply #1829 on: February 25, 2013, 07:32:35 am »
When it comes to stealth though, the Crysis AI can sometimes be a special kind of stupid.  I've gone into cloak right in front of them WHILE they're shooting at me/. Instead of keeping shooting for a few seconds or lobbing a grenade in my direction, they stand around for a couple seconds like "Where'd he go?"  before fully reacting.  And the bad guys KNOW I have a nanosuit that can cloak.

I saw the beginnings of an LP of Crysis 3 on its release, and a CELL soldier at the start shot at the player after sneaking up behind him (not really using stealth against the player; he was just distracted shooting at someone else and got flanked). After the player cloaked, the soldier immediately started spraying the entire area in front of him, just waving his gun around and hoping to hit something.

Quote
There's a fine line between making stealth difficult/realistic and impossible.  Making those things too realistic could kill the fun factor of the game, which is more important.   I could see doing it in a semi-realistic way, where blowing your cover would completely change up how the scenario plays, because all the guards would be on high alert, shift to more defensive positions, no longer patrol alone, etc.

One of the game concepts I've been working on (based on an RP which is in turn inspired by Battle Royale) actually tries to go toward the upper end, with NPCs being able to spot/hear rustling foliage and not necessarily blindly following any sound they hear (so if you throw a rock in a corner to try and draw them away, they may freak out and flee or instinctively shoot toward the noise or go on guard and put themselves in a defensive position). The way it's able to work is that the game also has an RPG-style stat system regarding Perception, as well as hidden stats regarding things like morale (lumped in with fear, so low morale = high fear) so the enemies you're facing aren't going to be trained soldiers or cold criminals.

Another big part of it is that the NPCs in the game can use stealth against YOU, and have access to the full range of abilities that the player has(like sneaking, making noises for a distraction, climbing trees or ducking into crevices to hide, ambushes, etc.). The game idea is more along the lines of Dwarf Fortress or Nethack in that it's explicitly not meant to be fair to the player, and won't cheat to gain an advantage or intentionally fudge actions to make it easier. The RPG stat and skill system governs how the NPCs act, so most enemies will have terrible combat skills and won't exactly pop you in the head from behind a tree at 50 yards before you even hear them coming. But they won't cause a skilled and deadly enemy to miss his first shot just as a warning, or make someone far stronger than you suddenly weaken to keep him from overpowering you in physical combat. The idea is to force the player to focus, be cautious, use their own skill and knowledge to make up for the character's faults, and be a crafty motherfucker.
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