FSTDT Forums
Community => Politics and Government => Topic started by: DiscoBerry on January 20, 2012, 06:20:36 pm
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You read that right and Hello to the readers at RAF Menwith Hill.
https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/284979-ajt.html (https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/284979-ajt.html) (Full article PDF)
Andrew Adler, the owner and publisher of the Atlanta Jewish Times, a weekly newspaper serving Atlanta's Jewish community, devoted his January 13, 2012 column to the thorny problem of the U.S. and Israel's diverging views on the threat posed by Iran. Basically Israel has three options, he wrote: Strike Hezbollah and Hamas, strike Iran, or "order a hit" on Barack Obama. Either way, problem solved!
Here's how Adler laid out "option three" in his list of scenarios facing Israeli president Benjamin Netanyahu (the column, which was forwarded to us by a tipster, isn't online, but you can read a copy here):
Three, give the go-ahead for U.S.-based Mossad agents to take out a president deemed unfriendly to Israel in order for the current vice president to take his place, and forcefully dictate that the United States' policy includes its helping the Jewish state obliterate its enemies.
Yes, you read "three" correctly. Order a hit on a president in order to preserve Israel's existence. Think about it. If I have thought of this Tom Clancy-type scenario, don't you think that this almost unfathomable idea has been discussed in Israel's most inner circles?
Another way of putting "three" in perspective goes something like this: How far would you go to save a nation comprised of seven million lives...Jews, Christians and Arabs alike?
You have got to believe, like I do, that all options are on the table.
http://gawker.com/5877892/newspaper-editor-israel-should-consider-assassinating-obama (http://gawker.com/5877892/newspaper-editor-israel-should-consider-assassinating-obama)
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I. Fucking. Hate. Israel.
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Zionist assholes.
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Zionist assholes.
Oh no! You're being anti-semetic! /sarcasm
I mean, I don't mind Jewish people, but their fundies are just as annoying as any other group.
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Yeah, this guy's definitely a crazy person, but hating all Jews/Israel? That's a stretch.
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The entire world, obviously, is of second-importance to the specific policy Netanyahu would prefer to enact right now.
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This guy doesn't have any important sympathizers or power does he? I sure the hell hope not.
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I have nothing against Jewish people, but I do hate Israel. It is a racist state founded on the dispossession of the Palestinian people.
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So an Israeli assassination of Obama is supposed to make Biden friendly to Israel?
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So an Israeli assassination of Obama is supposed to make Biden friendly to Israel?
You're- you're using logic to argue with a fundie. Just stop, it'll feel better. ;)
I have nothing against Jewish people, but I do hate Israel. It is a racist state founded on the dispossession of the Palestinian people.
*sigh* what you're saying makes logical sense, but I can't bring myself to say I agree. Sorry, I mean no offense. :-\
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So an Israeli assassination of Obama is supposed to make Biden friendly to Israel?
You're- you're using logic to argue with a fundie. Just stop, it'll feel better. ;)
Not arguing. Just confirming what kind of a person we’re dealing with.
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Well Obama assasinates people now, and you know what they say about turn about.
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This is your brain on dogma, kids.
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It doesn't read like he's advocating it, only saying that it's something Netanyahu must have considered. Although it's hard to say, considering his comments later on where he goes on 'Deny Everything' mode:
A nervous Adler told me over the phone that he wasn't advocating Obama's assassination by Mossad agents. "Of course not," he said.
But do you think Israel should consider it an option? "No."
But do you believe that Israel is in fact considering the option in its most inner circles? "No. Actually, no. I was hoping to make clear that it's unspeakableâ€â€god forbid this would ever happen. I take it you're quoting me?"
Yes. "Oh, boy."
When I asked Adler why, if he didn't advocate assassination and didn't believe Israel was actually considering it, he wrote a column saying he believed that the option was "on the table," he asked for a minute to compose himself and call me back. He did a few moments later, and said, "I wrote it to see what kind of reaction I was going to get from readers."
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I have nothing against Jewish people, but I do hate Israel. It is a racist state founded on the dispossession of the Palestinian people.
*sigh* what you're saying makes logical sense, but I can't bring myself to say I agree. Sorry, I mean no offense. :-\
None taken, just what do you mean?
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I don't mind Israel as a concept: Pakistan and India were also founded along religious lines, and they have gone through a lot of shit as a people. However, I do think we're mollycoddling them because we were assholes to them in WWII, and we like Jews more than we like Muslims. Neither side is really right, and both sides have committed a lot of civil rights violations and violence. It's just really sad all around.
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I don't think the Mossad could pull it off, honestly.
Ridiculous statement though. Guy should watch out...If he's an American citizen, Obama can kill 'em. LoL ::)
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I have nothing against Jewish people, but I do hate Israel. It is a racist state founded on the dispossession of the Palestinian people.
*sigh* what you're saying makes logical sense, but I can't bring myself to say I agree. Sorry, I mean no offense. :-\
None taken, just what do you mean?
I don't mind Israel as a concept: Pakistan and India were also founded along religious lines, and they have gone through a lot of shit as a people. However, I do think we're mollycoddling them because we were assholes to them in WWII, and we like Jews more than we like Muslims. Neither side is really right, and both sides have committed a lot of civil rights violations and violence. It's just really sad all around.
There we go. I was having trouble putting into words how I felt about Israel, and Smurfette did it for me quite beautifully.
Also: It's hard for me to say I support the destabilization of an entire country, regardless of the circumstances in which it was created. Plus, I really feel bad over the whole Holocaust thing...I don't know, just some part of me wants to see them get something after all that suffering.
I never said it was based on the logical side of my brain. It's sympathy, pure and simple.
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I just think fighting over a strip of barely-habitable desert land is stupid. This much blood over who's side God is on? REALLY?
As much as I think the Jews should get something for the Holocaust, I wouldn't do so at the expense of the people already living there. There are better ways to go about it, and destabilizing an entire region is NOT it. I have nothing but respect for the Jews as a people, but I treat the fundies of their faith like I would any other fundie.
Back on tangent: I don't think he was calling for it, either, but his backpedalling isn't doing himself any favors.
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Well Obama assasinates people now, and you know what they say about turn about.
You also know what they say about two wrongs not making a right.
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Well Obama assasinates people now, and you know what they say about turn about.
You also know what they say about two wrongs not making a right.
And what they say about two Wrights making an airplane...
Wait, what were we talking about?
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We're talking about Israel killing Obama.
I don't mind Israel as a concept: Pakistan and India were also founded along religious lines, and they have gone through a lot of shit as a people. However, I do think we're mollycoddling them because we were assholes to them in WWII, and we like Jews more than we like Muslims. Neither side is really right, and both sides have committed a lot of civil rights violations and violence. It's just really sad all around.
Very nice words. Effective and concise. Thanks for saying that.
I just think fighting over a strip of barely-habitable desert land is stupid. This much blood over who's side God is on? REALLY?
As much as I think the Jews should get something for the Holocaust, I wouldn't do so at the expense of the people already living there. There are better ways to go about it, and destabilizing an entire region is NOT it. I have nothing but respect for the Jews as a people, but I treat the fundies of their faith like I would any other fundie.
Back on tangent: I don't think he was calling for it, either, but his backpedalling isn't doing himself any favors.
I agree that peace should occur there for they are fighting over nothing but dessert. As someone who was raised Jewish I don't mind Israel, but the Palestinians should have a voice too. It's fair. That does not mean either side can violently attack civilians to "defend themselves" because that is wrong to harm the innocent. If there is a All Powerful Loving God, I doubt he is on either side of any war, anyway. Israel has nice people as are Palestinians (some are really cute too ;)), but the religious psychos and greedy politicians there are making it really hard for everyone. The fighting has to stop. I don't get why they don't just make one state for both peoples so they can live side by side in peace. To remove the violence one must remove all the crazies. Both sides want peace only the loons press on. A good amount of the the kids are starting to see the stupidity to continue fighting. Maybe even Hamas (doubt it though). Hope both sides will be come together in peace.
As for the topic, the guy in the article is a loon. I doubt Mossad would think about assassinating Obama since they would be the prime suspects if they tried to pull it off. I wonder what the psychos at RR thinks about this. Also destabilizing the region would be have dire consequences.
Legally, can Obama kill this guy just for utilizing his first amendment right?
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Well Obama assasinates people now, and you know what they say about turn about.
You also know what they say about two wrongs not making a right.
true... If they actually did it, that would be wrong. But Americans getting upset about the concept of other people doing something America is already doing is kinda hypocritical.
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I don't mind Israel as a concept: Pakistan and India were also founded along religious lines, and they have gone through a lot of shit as a people.
I don't get your point. So what if India and Pakistan were founded along religious lines. Look how it turned out, millions dead and around 4 wars since. India and Pakistan are two shit holes fighting over one of the most worthless pieces of land in the world and wasting a fuckton of money on it. Both have problems with religious extremists.
I disagree with Israel as a concept. We attacked South Africa for being an apartheid state, why should Israel be let off for favouring Jews at the expense of others?
However, I do think we're mollycoddling them because we were assholes to them in WWII, and we like Jews more than we like Muslims. Neither side is really right, and both sides have committed a lot of civil rights violations and violence. It's just really sad all around.
I agree that both sides have been pretty bad, but it is not as if the Palestinians took part in the Holocaust. It's not as if they had occasional pogroms like the Tsars had. I think the Palestinians are right, Israel was forced upon them and they've been treated like shit since. That said, I don't support pushing Israelis out of their homes; I'd rather a single state that accepted anyone, Jewish, Palestinian, Costa Rican, Uzbekistani, etc.
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I just think fighting over a strip of barely-habitable desert land is stupid. This much blood over who's side God is on? REALLY?
THIS.
I've said it before on the other board, and I'll say it again. All this crap is because we have 3 religions, within a stone's throw of each other, who worship the same fucking god, and who blow each other up over sand and fucking rocks!
As far as I'm concerned, they're all a bunch of dumbasses, or at least the leaders are.
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What I am curious to know is, did he get a chance to turn off his laptop before the FBI pounced on him?
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Pakistan and India were also founded along religious lines,
And didn't that work out well.
I don't get why they don't just make one state for both peoples so they can live side by side in peace.
Israel is a state of and for the Jews. If it simply offered full citizenship to all the people in the areas it occupies, it would cease to be a Jewish state, which would be problematic. But nor can it stay within it's legitimate borders (the Green line). The water aquifers it relies on are in Palestine. Also, Israel proper is overcrowded. How is your country going to be an international home for the Jews if houses cost triple and there's no running water? Since the occupation costs so little (just a few dozen lives a year- no big deal), why not just invade your neighbour?
The reason the war continues is that there is no way for the Palestinians to force the Israelis to the negotiating table. They have nothing to give up and no stick with which to beat them and no friends to threaten them. So the Israelis won't negotiate. They'll just endure a couple of hundred casualties, parade around all morally superior, and gradually ethnically cleanse the West Bank. Easy!
Maybe even Hamas (doubt it though).
Hamas has signed the Arab Peace Initiative, as has every nation in the region other than Israel and the US. Israel refuses even to negotiate without crushing preconditions (like the total disbanding of the Palestinian army).
The whole point of Israel is pessimistic and bullshit. Zionist theory goes that all goyim hate Jews- Churchill hated them just as much as Hitler. Unless Jews fled Berlin, New York, Sydney ect, the holocaust would happen again and this time the evil non-Jews would finish them off for good. So Israel could be the 'safe place' for Jews*. How pessimistic is that? I feel that has actually been disproven- clearly modern Germany, America ect is a safe place for Jews to live. If this whole 'Israel' thing doesn't work out, they can go live there, no big deal. Not the same story for the locals, of course.
It's also bullshit. Germans and Poles and Russians and Iraqis and Moroccans have no claim to territory in Palestine- none. It shouldn't be a matter of compromise: the specific Jews who alleged they had religious claim to the land were wrong. Only a few dozen Jews had any legitimate land claims. Nevertheless, German land claims to Middle Eastern territory has been given HIGHER respect than Middle Eastern claims. It is literally the case that the UN allowed Germans to turn up at Palestinian people's homes, evict them, make them homeless and then establish a state based on their 'right' to rule the land. And then refused- to the present day- to do anything for the million and a half people they forced out at gunpoint. Bullshit. The Israelis have no right to live there. The very state exists only at the rest of the world's sufferance. The least they can do is not kick someone else out of the fucking boat when the others let them get in out of sympathy.
Edit: oh and some Jews suffer discrimination on the basis of their religion in Israel- the non-orthodox, or the Sephardi Jews. Almost no Sephardis have any position in the national government. They're poorer, less educated and more unemployed than the Ashkenazis (and the Muslims are even worse than either of them). So some Jews still suffer persecution for being Jews.
* Hilariously, it's been anything but. Israel's very existence provoked the decolonised Middle East, who struck against what they saw as a relic of British Imperialism. A series of bloody wars with Egypt only ended when Carter negotiated a peace agreement. Jews in New York were much less likely to be victims of persecution than those in Israel, at least between 1949 and 1979.
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When you say you hate Israel, do you merely believe that Israel's policies are wrong, or that Israel as we know it should be dismantled? If the latter, do you support some sort of one-state solution? Or should the Israelis all leave?
Because while I can understand the opinion that Israel's founding was illegitimate, I don't accept forcing the current population out as a legitimate option. For one thing, those people were born and raised there (most of them, at least). I personally believe that an individual has the right to live where he was born and raised. For another, how do you propose to implement such a plan? Do you honestly think that Israel would even consider it?
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Well Obama assasinates people now, and you know what they say about turn about.
You also know what they say about two wrongs not making a right.
true... If they actually did it, that would be wrong. But Americans getting upset about the concept of other people doing something America is already doing is kinda hypocritical.
Only for those that agree with Obama's assassinations.
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Well Obama assasinates people now, and you know what they say about turn about.
You also know what they say about two wrongs not making a right.
And what they say about two Wrights making an airplane...
Wait, what were we talking about?
Is that you, Pinkie?
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*sigh* Further proof that fundies of all flags are just giant morons.
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Israel is a state of and for the Jews. If it simply offered full citizenship to all the people in the areas it occupies, it would cease to be a Jewish state, which would be problematic. But nor can it stay within it's legitimate borders (the Green line). The water aquifers it relies on are in Palestine. Also, Israel proper is overcrowded. How is your country going to be an international home for the Jews if houses cost triple and there's no running water? Since the occupation costs so little (just a few dozen lives a year- no big deal), why not just invade your neighbour?
You know, I just got sad realizing some people would say this with total sincerity.
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When you say you hate Israel, do you merely believe that Israel's policies are wrong, or that Israel as we know it should be dismantled? If the latter, do you support some sort of one-state solution? Or should the Israelis all leave?
Because while I can understand the opinion that Israel's founding was illegitimate, I don't accept forcing the current population out as a legitimate option. For one thing, those people were born and raised there (most of them, at least). I personally believe that an individual has the right to live where he was born and raised. For another, how do you propose to implement such a plan? Do you honestly think that Israel would even consider it?
I have to say, I agree with this viewpoint.
I support Israel, but I'm hardly blind to the fact that the circumstances surrounding the nation's founding were questionable, to say the least. I'm also aware that the people of that country are more than capable of closed-mindedness, intolerance, and all the other stuff we hate so much. I just don't see dismantling the country as the solution. There has to be a middle ground, and perhaps if some leaders get elected in the future willing to actually negotiate, for real, we can work something out.
I know, I sound idealistic and naive. But I have to hope for it anyway. I just wish the bloodshed would come to a close without royally screwing over either side for decades to come.
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Because while I can understand the opinion that Israel's founding was illegitimate, I don't accept forcing the current population out as a legitimate option. For one thing, those people were born and raised there (most of them, at least). I personally believe that an individual has the right to live where he was born and raised. For another, how do you propose to implement such a plan? Do you honestly think that Israel would even consider it?
There would be absolutely no harm done at all to the Germans if they were forced out of the Middle East. They're quite wealthy (average wage 30,000 or so), so they'd easily be able to buy a house in some other country. No harm done.
Unless Israel learns to live with it's neighbours, within it's borders, that is what is going to happen.
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There would be absolutely no harm done at all to the Germans if they were forced out of the Middle East. They're quite wealthy (average wage 30,000 or so), so they'd easily be able to buy a house in some other country. No harm done.
::)
By that logic, there really shouldn't be any problem kicking all non-natives out of Australia.
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The zionist occupation forces in Palestine are as anti jewish as they are anti semitic.
Zionists hide behind judaism, and gleefully hijack the persecution of jews in europe. But they do not represent judaism... nor should they be alowed to defame judaism by commiting attrocitys while claiming to act for judaism.
If the crimes of the zionists ever do lead to global consequences for judaism, the zionists will deny any connection to judaism.
Palestine earned its freedom in the great war of 1914-1918 as allies of England and France. That freedom was ripped out from under them by their allies when England and France betrayed and stole Palestine in 1919.
Interestingly America was originaly a strong supporter of Palestine, and Woodrow Wilson warned that the betrayal and partition of Palestine would have dire consequences down the road.
The original Kingdom of Palestine was proposed as a secular arab state with a symbolic (and powerless) monarchy presiding over an elected government. This Kingdom was agreed to by the British under the Hussein/MacMahon accord of 1915.
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There would be absolutely no harm done at all to the Germans if they were forced out of the Middle East. They're quite wealthy (average wage 30,000 or so), so they'd easily be able to buy a house in some other country. No harm done.
::)
By that logic, there really shouldn't be any problem kicking all non-natives out of Australia.
True. However, Indigenous Australians have full rights as citizens, can live wherever they like, and can claim very limited Native title over some land. White Australia's treatment of our indigenous population remains a travesty, but at least we haven't repeatedly made them homeless in the last 50 years and refused to do anything about it.
Nor do the owners of this land want us to go. That would be a major economic shock to their society.
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Unless Israel learns to live with it's neighbours, within it's borders, that is what is going to happen.
Only if the US and others stop being allied with them. Even without support it would be hard for even a combined force to beat Israel's military.
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Well Obama assasinates people now, and you know what they say about turn about.
You also know what they say about two wrongs not making a right.
true... If they actually did it, that would be wrong. But Americans getting upset about the concept of other people doing something America is already doing is kinda hypocritical.
Only for those that agree with Obama's assassinations.
Thats the problem with heads of state, when they do outrageous things, it sort of assumed they have the support of the citizenry, even if they don't.
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I hear-by declare this thread...Derailed
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When you say you hate Israel, do you merely believe that Israel's policies are wrong, or that Israel as we know it should be dismantled? If the latter, do you support some sort of one-state solution? Or should the Israelis all leave?
Because while I can understand the opinion that Israel's founding was illegitimate, I don't accept forcing the current population out as a legitimate option. For one thing, those people were born and raised there (most of them, at least). I personally believe that an individual has the right to live where he was born and raised. For another, how do you propose to implement such a plan? Do you honestly think that Israel would even consider it?
I would say Israel as we know should be dismantled. I don't want to remove Jews from the area, pushing Israelis off the land would be ethnic cleansing, and therefore wrong (obviously). I would prefer a single state (I'm not really fussed if it is called Israel) that is not run on religious lines and does not discriminate on the basis of religion or race.
The problem with a two state solution, even with the 1967 borders, is that both countries are split into three parts.
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When you say you hate Israel, do you merely believe that Israel's policies are wrong, or that Israel as we know it should be dismantled? If the latter, do you support some sort of one-state solution? Or should the Israelis all leave?
Because while I can understand the opinion that Israel's founding was illegitimate, I don't accept forcing the current population out as a legitimate option. For one thing, those people were born and raised there (most of them, at least). I personally believe that an individual has the right to live where he was born and raised. For another, how do you propose to implement such a plan? Do you honestly think that Israel would even consider it?
I would say Israel as we know should be dismantled. I don't want to remove Jews from the area, pushing Israelis off the land would be ethnic cleansing, and therefore wrong (obviously). I would prefer a single state (I'm not really fussed if it is called Israel) that is not run on religious lines and does not discriminate on the basis of religion or race.
The problem with a two state solution, even with the 1967 borders, is that both countries are split into three parts.
A hypothetical State of Israel-Palestine (Israelistine?) would also have to modernize in the sense that certain religious groups (coughHaredicough) are no longer given special privileges, which is better done sooner than later because the Haredi are a vocal, influential, and quickly-growing minority.
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There would be absolutely no harm done at all to the Germans if they were forced out of the Middle East. They're quite wealthy (average wage 30,000 or so), so they'd easily be able to buy a house in some other country. No harm done.
::)
By that logic, there really shouldn't be any problem kicking all non-natives out of Australia.
True. However, Indigenous Australians have full rights as citizens, can live wherever they like, and can claim very limited Native title over some land. White Australia's treatment of our indigenous population remains a travesty, but at least we haven't repeatedly made them homeless in the last 50 years and refused to do anything about it.
Nor do the owners of this land want us to go. That would be a major economic shock to their society.
So you get to stay because they need you. If that's all it takes then just give Israel another 100 years to catch up and create some legitimacy.
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...Wasn't NDAA made for things like this?
While the act itself is pure evil, in this case when someones talking about assassinating the President, then...
These kinds of things happening in Israel is a sad reminder that a large number of people honestly consider being a Knight Templar perfectly acceptable.
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There would be absolutely no harm done at all to the Germans if they were forced out of the Middle East. They're quite wealthy (average wage 30,000 or so), so they'd easily be able to buy a house in some other country. No harm done.
::)
By that logic, there really shouldn't be any problem kicking all non-natives out of Australia.
True. However, Indigenous Australians have full rights as citizens, can live wherever they like, and can claim very limited Native title over some land. White Australia's treatment of our indigenous population remains a travesty, but at least we haven't repeatedly made them homeless in the last 50 years and refused to do anything about it.
Nor do the owners of this land want us to go. That would be a major economic shock to their society.
So you get to stay because they need you. If that's all it takes then just give Israel another 100 years to catch up and create some legitimacy.
They don't need shit. We're not hurting them, so they have no problem with us sticking around. If there were an organised Indigenous group with majority support calling for white Australia to piss off (like, say, Hamas) I'd have no choice but to join them, because that's clearly their right. They haven't exercised that right, because we live peacefully alongside.
It's almost like there's some kind of lesson here for the relics of colonialism.
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There would be absolutely no harm done at all to the Germans if they were forced out of the Middle East. They're quite wealthy (average wage 30,000 or so), so they'd easily be able to buy a house in some other country. No harm done.
::)
By that logic, there really shouldn't be any problem kicking all non-natives out of Australia.
True. However, Indigenous Australians have full rights as citizens, can live wherever they like, and can claim very limited Native title over some land. White Australia's treatment of our indigenous population remains a travesty, but at least we haven't repeatedly made them homeless in the last 50 years and refused to do anything about it.
Nor do the owners of this land want us to go. That would be a major economic shock to their society.
So you get to stay because they need you. If that's all it takes then just give Israel another 100 years to catch up and create some legitimacy.
They don't need shit. We're not hurting them, so they have no problem with us sticking around. If there were an organised Indigenous group with majority support calling for white Australia to piss off (like, say, Hamas) I'd have no choice but to join them, because that's clearly their right. They haven't exercised that right, because we live peacefully alongside.
It's almost like there's some kind of lesson here for the relics of colonialism.
Thats a... unique...line of reasoning.
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There would be absolutely no harm done at all to the Germans if they were forced out of the Middle East. They're quite wealthy (average wage 30,000 or so), so they'd easily be able to buy a house in some other country. No harm done.
::)
By that logic, there really shouldn't be any problem kicking all non-natives out of Australia.
True. However, Indigenous Australians have full rights as citizens, can live wherever they like, and can claim very limited Native title over some land. White Australia's treatment of our indigenous population remains a travesty, but at least we haven't repeatedly made them homeless in the last 50 years and refused to do anything about it.
Nor do the owners of this land want us to go. That would be a major economic shock to their society.
So you get to stay because they need you. If that's all it takes then just give Israel another 100 years to catch up and create some legitimacy.
They don't need shit. We're not hurting them, so they have no problem with us sticking around. If there were an organised Indigenous group with majority support calling for white Australia to piss off (like, say, Hamas) I'd have no choice but to join them, because that's clearly their right. They haven't exercised that right, because we live peacefully alongside.
It's almost like there's some kind of lesson here for the relics of colonialism.
Thats a... unique...line of reasoning.
On what basis do whites in Australia own land? We have no basis.
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There would be absolutely no harm done at all to the Germans if they were forced out of the Middle East. They're quite wealthy (average wage 30,000 or so), so they'd easily be able to buy a house in some other country. No harm done.
::)
By that logic, there really shouldn't be any problem kicking all non-natives out of Australia.
True. However, Indigenous Australians have full rights as citizens, can live wherever they like, and can claim very limited Native title over some land. White Australia's treatment of our indigenous population remains a travesty, but at least we haven't repeatedly made them homeless in the last 50 years and refused to do anything about it.
Nor do the owners of this land want us to go. That would be a major economic shock to their society.
So you get to stay because they need you. If that's all it takes then just give Israel another 100 years to catch up and create some legitimacy.
They don't need shit. We're not hurting them, so they have no problem with us sticking around. If there were an organised Indigenous group with majority support calling for white Australia to piss off (like, say, Hamas) I'd have no choice but to join them, because that's clearly their right. They haven't exercised that right, because we live peacefully alongside.
It's almost like there's some kind of lesson here for the relics of colonialism.
Thats a... unique...line of reasoning.
On what basis do whites in Australia own land? We have no basis.
Not really looking for a flame war, but IMHO a white Australian born here has precisely the same amount of claim to the country as an aboriginal person born here. I don't believe heritage affects where one is from, if you take my meaning. If you're born in America, you're American, if you're born in Australia, you're an Australian, if you're born in outer Mongolia, you're an outer Mongolian. Regardless of whether your family has been in the country you were born in for 40 minutes or 40,000 years, its still you're country. I don't believe in degrees of citizenship, you're either an Australian or you're not, its a kind of dichotomy.
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I don't believe heritage affects where one is from, if you take my meaning.
A person inherits that property that their parents owned. Clearly, our ancestors did not own this land. By right of discovery and first colonisation, the Indigenous population did. Our claims to fee simple are always based on the alleged right of conquest, a right that does not exist. Therefore, 100% of this land is owned by the descendants of the owners.
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I don't believe heritage affects where one is from, if you take my meaning.
A person inherits that property that their parents owned. Clearly, our ancestors did not own this land. By right of discovery and first colonisation, the Indigenous population did. Our claims to fee simple are always based on the alleged right of conquest, a right that does not exist. Therefore, 100% of this land is owned by the descendants of the owners.
So... what of non indiginous people born here?
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There would be absolutely no harm done at all to the Germans if they were forced out of the Middle East. They're quite wealthy (average wage 30,000 or so), so they'd easily be able to buy a house in some other country. No harm done.
::)
By that logic, there really shouldn't be any problem kicking all non-natives out of Australia.
True. However, Indigenous Australians have full rights as citizens, can live wherever they like, and can claim very limited Native title over some land. White Australia's treatment of our indigenous population remains a travesty, but at least we haven't repeatedly made them homeless in the last 50 years and refused to do anything about it.
Nor do the owners of this land want us to go. That would be a major economic shock to their society.
So you get to stay because they need you. If that's all it takes then just give Israel another 100 years to catch up and create some legitimacy.
They don't need shit. We're not hurting them, so they have no problem with us sticking around. If there were an organised Indigenous group with majority support calling for white Australia to piss off (like, say, Hamas) I'd have no choice but to join them, because that's clearly their right. They haven't exercised that right, because we live peacefully alongside.
It's almost like there's some kind of lesson here for the relics of colonialism.
Honestly, are you pulling an "It's ok when we do it" move?
If you want to force one people to move from a region because they are not the native local population, then that qualifies you too, whether you did your overtaking better or worse.
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I don't believe heritage affects where one is from, if you take my meaning.
A person inherits that property that their parents owned.
And that property always goes down the line, oh so broken. Always transferred, and always intact?
I really should hope not. I don’t have enough room for all my stuff plus all my dad’s stuff plus all my granddad’s stuff, plus all my great-granddad’s stuff, plus all my great-great-granddad’s stuff, plus…
Clearly, our ancestors did not own this land. By right of discovery and first colonisation, the Indigenous population did. Our claims to fee simple are always based on the alleged right of conquest, a right that does not exist. Therefore, 100% of this land is owned by the descendants of the owners.
My distant ancestors came from Norway and Germany. I have never been to Norway or Germany. I’ve only ever seen those countries in photographs and film. Hell, I count myself lucky when I can get out of Wisconsin, and I live on a border town!
My mother was born in Michigan. So that’s closer than Norway and Germany. But other than that, my connection to Michigan is no stronger than any place in Europe.
I really don’t see what any of those places have to do with me just because someone I may happen to share a few stray chromosomes with happened to eat and sleep on some farmstead there.
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Honestly, are you pulling an "It's ok when we do it" move?
If you want to force one people to move from a region because they are not the native local population, then that qualifies you too, whether you did your overtaking better or worse.
It certainly looks like that is what he is saying.
First 'they don't want us to go, it would be a major economic shock' then a little later it's, 'they don't need shit.' Two justifications for not handing Australia back that are in direct conflict with one another.
Keep trying Fred, maybe we can come up with an honorable reason rather than be forced to admit that we won't give the land back to our indigenous peoples because it would be impossible to now since so much has changed. The wars are over, they lost, we shattered their civilizations and built up ours in their place while only allowing them as much re-building as suited our needs and whims. Pandora's box was opened, there is no closing it now.
The difference with Israel is that it's in its infancy and there is still an opportunity to reverse what is happening. That and the world half-way gives a shit.
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I don't believe heritage affects where one is from, if you take my meaning.
A person inherits that property that their parents owned. Clearly, our ancestors did not own this land. By right of discovery and first colonisation, the Indigenous population did. Our claims to fee simple are always based on the alleged right of conquest, a right that does not exist. Therefore, 100% of this land is owned by the descendants of the owners.
So... what of non indiginous people born here?
We're squatters. If the owners tell us to bugger off, off we shall bugger.
I don't believe heritage affects where one is from, if you take my meaning.
A person inherits that property that their parents owned.
And that property always goes down the line, oh so broken. Always transferred, and always intact?
I really should hope not. I don’t have enough room for all my stuff plus all my dad’s stuff plus all my granddad’s stuff, plus all my great-granddad’s stuff, plus all my great-great-granddad’s stuff, plus…
Yeah. That's not controversial at all. You inherit. It happens. It's a thing. I don't remotely understand your complaint here at all. Are you arguing that inheritance isn't real?
I really don’t see what any of those places have to do with me just because someone I may happen to share a few stray chromosomes with happened to eat and sleep on some farmstead there.
If you've got a better system than inheritance, please do tell the government. Maybe they can replace a thousands year old system because you haven't been to Norway.
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Of course, one problem is that he hasn't any right to live in Norway, either.
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First 'they don't want us to go, it would be a major economic shock' then a little later it's, 'they don't need shit.' Two justifications for not handing Australia back that are in direct conflict with one another.
Nonsense. The claim that indigenous Australians 'need' White Australia implies some kind of welfare function, a function that does not exist. In the long run, they would be happily living without white society. However, it would cause temporary dislocation, a pain in the arse.
we won't give the land back to our indigenous peoples because it would be impossible to now since so much has changed.
Because they don't want us to go, because we don't abuse them like the IDF.
The wars are over, they lost, we shattered their civilizations and built up ours in their place while only allowing them as much re-building as suited our needs and whims.
Not a legitimate claim.
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Because they don't want us to go, because we don't abuse them like the IDF.
I suppose that boils down to who you ask as well. There's natives everywhere that want people gone, don't care, or want them to stay. Stop applying double standards
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Of course, one problem is that he hasn't any right to live in Norway, either.
Another problem is that the number of Norwegians and their descendant living abroad probably far exceeds the carrying capacity of Norwegian society to maintain. Send 'em all home and watch the country implode.
Then there's that whole problem of most countries recognize some form of squatters rights...
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The wars are over, they lost, we shattered their civilizations and built up ours in their place while only allowing them as much re-building as suited our needs and whims.
Not a legitimate claim.
Sure it is, it would cause temporary dislocation, a pain in the arse.
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I really should hope not. I don’t have enough room for all my stuff plus all my dad’s stuff plus all my granddad’s stuff, plus all my great-granddad’s stuff, plus all my great-great-granddad’s stuff, plus…
Yeah. That's not controversial at all. You inherit. It happens. It's a thing. I don't remotely understand your complaint here at all. Are you arguing that inheritance isn't real?
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Well, if I inherit everything that has ever been in my family, I should probably have a few deeds for some farmsteads near the fjords is all I am saying.