On March 23, Lee sent Welden a text message about the unborn baby: "I thought of a nice name for whatever it is. Memphis Remington Welden. Kids gonna be a bad ass!"
Welden responded: "Oh God I want to die … Are you serious Remee please don't do this I beg you"
"Don't do what?" she texted back. "Take responsibility for my actions? This isn't about us anymore. It is not it's fault, why should it have to die? You must not be who I thought you were if you are asking me to murder our child."
"I can't I hate myself now," he responded. "Fine I can't do this I am destroyed."
In the recorded conversation, Lee tells Welden she didn't want to force a relationship on him. "If you wanted to go be with Tara, that's fine," she says, according to a transcript excerpted in the prosecution pleading. "Go be with Tara. I woulda had my kid and I woulda been fine with that … I woulda told my parents it was someone else's. I wouldn't have bothered you for money. I wouldn't have bothered you at all."
"I didn't want to be that guy" who doesn't care, Welden responds.
"So you're going to be the guy that goes and just kills the baby without even letting me know?" Lee said. "To save your own precious hide? Right?"
"I guess," Welden said. "If I saved anything I didn't really save anything."
On one hand, the charges are bullshit.I doubt the charges will go away, so he is facing First Degree Murder with a chance for life in prison. And, I fixed the URL. I keep getting it mixed with the Spoiler-text method of making it more than just a URL/spoiler.
On the other hand, what this guy did was deceive his girlfriend into taking a drug that was unknown to her and altered her body chemistry to cause harm to a part of her body (even if that part was the fetus). I'm pretty sure that it should be the same charge as whatever "attempting to poison someone" falls under.
Regardless of the charges, I hope this guy either goes to jail or has to do a hefty amount of community service. OR both.
He tricked his pregnant girlfriend into taking an abortion pill, and conduced the abortion. What a sack of shit. I don't agree with murder 1 in this case, depending on the age of the fetus. Voluntary manslaughter, murder 2, would be what I would roll with.The fetus was seven weeks. It was a ball of cells.
Some states (I know VA is one*) have laws that specifically differentiate between a willing abortion and killing a viable embryo/fetus by willful or negligent action. As it is 4AM at the moment, I'm not going to look to see if FL has such a law. (I'll look later.) If so, that may explain the first degree murder charge.It's a federal law, the one I cited("he is facing MANDATORY life in prison under a federal law called the Unborn Victims of Violence Act"). So, he's being charged under that. And, your interview? I'm curious here.
*(click to show/hide)
The kid committed a crime. He basically drugged his girfriend. That's a serious offence- he took control over her body away from her, just as Republican policy-makers want to do. Throw him in jail for a year, or give him a longer suspended sentence.I agree, he drugged her and that's horrible. He didn't murder anything. A 7 week old fetus is literally dumber than a virus.
It stops being a "clump of cells" the moment the mother decides she is going through with the pregnancy.It might be a future baby, but it is a clump of cells. He's a cockwagon, and she's an idiot, and the murder charge is insane. He does need criminal charges, but not for murder.
A woman's choice is just that. HER choice. I'm sorry that this guy didn't want to be a father. But if we are pro-choice we have to be totally pro-choice.
He is a scum bag. She is a bit stupid. But scumbag is much much worse.
I do agree that murder charge is a bit OTT. But he needs to face some kind of criminal charges.
Is there precedent for this?Well, IIRC, people have been convicted of murder for killing a fetus in a car crash. I'm gonna go google the law.(click to show/hide)
YOU SOLD HER BABY EARS FOR 75 DOLLARS! I DAMN YOU TO HELL? Bet you won't get that reference.Easy. Chick Tract. And then you referenced the Chick Tracts Narm page on TV Tropes.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iVlkZVAw8Gc
It stops being a "clump of cells" the moment the mother decides she is going through with the pregnancy.
A woman's choice is just that. HER choice. I'm sorry that this guy didn't want to be a father. But if we are pro-choice we have to be totally pro-choice.
He is a scum bag. She is a bit stupid. But scumbag is much much worse.
I do agree that murder charge is a bit OTT. But he needs to face some kind of criminal charges.
He could be charged with attempted murder on the girlfriend. While the abortion pill is relatively safe, there are a few side effects that can result in maternal mortality.I'd imagine that, since even using rohypnol on someone doesn't get you an attempted murder charge, he can't get that.
Couple years in prison plus some heavy, heavy fucking fines. What he did was cruel, callous, and unjust, but not murder and not deserving of a life term in prison. Besides, he doesn't even need one: the publicity he'll get from this will eradicate most of his life as it is, he needs little extra help in that regard.And yeah. Let him take himself out of the world. No employer will hire him after a google search.
He could be charged with attempted murder on the girlfriend. While the abortion pill is relatively safe, there are a few side effects that can result in maternal mortality.
He could be charged with attempted murder on the girlfriend. While the abortion pill is relatively safe, there are a few side effects that can result in maternal mortality.
Where's the mens rea?
He could be charged with attempted murder on the girlfriend. While the abortion pill is relatively safe, there are a few side effects that can result in maternal mortality.
Where's the mens rea?
True. It would have been more manslaughter if something had happened to her.
I'm gonna say no to that. Prescription medicine is not given without said prescription and instructions for its use for a reason. In fact even getting said prescription requires that a medical professional conciders the case and carefully decides the proper medicine and dosage.He could be charged with attempted murder on the girlfriend. While the abortion pill is relatively safe, there are a few side effects that can result in maternal mortality.
Where's the mens rea?
True. It would have been more manslaughter if something had happened to her.
Even then the case is thin. A reasonable person would not be concerned that serious harm could be done by an FDA-approved drug.
He could be charged with attempted murder on the girlfriend. While the abortion pill is relatively safe, there are a few side effects that can result in maternal mortality.
Where's the mens rea?
True. It would have been more manslaughter if something had happened to her.
Even then the case is thin. A reasonable person would not be concerned that serious harm could be done by an FDA-approved drug.
Note though, his crimes are all linked to the fetus. The mail fraud was for getting it and the witness tampering is only because he's being charged with this. So, he's not in trouble for tricking her into taking it. He's in trouble because the fetus died.
I certainly agree, but I don't think they're going to bother with it.Note though, his crimes are all linked to the fetus. The mail fraud was for getting it and the witness tampering is only because he's being charged with this. So, he's not in trouble for tricking her into taking it. He's in trouble because the fetus died.
He at least needs an assault charge for what he did to her.
The guy is a sack of shit, but I'm against legally treating a fetus as a separate person because it gives the anti-abortion advocates ammunition. "How can it be murder when someone else kills a fetus, but not when an abortion doctor does it?" It also opens the mother up to charges for harming the fetus through her actions. Should mothers who smoke or drink be charged with poisoning the fetus? What about if they do it before they know they're pregnant and stop afterward?I agree, but I do believe if it is born and has fetal alcohol syndrome or damage from smoking, it should be taken away immediately.
I don't support abortion up until the moment of birth, but IMHO a fetus should not be a legal person until it's actually born.
The guy is a sack of shit, but I'm against legally treating a fetus as a separate person because it gives the anti-abortion advocates ammunition. "How can it be murder when someone else kills a fetus, but not when an abortion doctor does it?" It also opens the mother up to charges for harming the fetus through her actions. Should mothers who smoke or drink be charged with poisoning the fetus? What about if they do it before they know they're pregnant and stop afterward?
I don't support abortion up until the moment of birth, but IMHO a fetus should not be a legal person until it's actually born.
The guy is a sack of shit, but I'm against legally treating a fetus as a separate person because it gives the anti-abortion advocates ammunition. "How can it be murder when someone else kills a fetus, but not when an abortion doctor does it?" It also opens the mother up to charges for harming the fetus through her actions. Should mothers who smoke or drink be charged with poisoning the fetus? What about if they do it before they know they're pregnant and stop afterward?
I don't support abortion up until the moment of birth, but IMHO a fetus should not be a legal person until it's actually born.
I know how to answer that conundrum.....what Mr. Slimy McMenowantbaby did was as anti-choice as banning abortion. The woman wanted to keep the baby but this turkey didn't. It goes both ways. If a woman wants an abortion, that's her right. If a woman want's to go through with the pregnancy & birth the little one, that's her right too. This guy violated this woman's rights (and hurt her in the process).
Taken away... to where, exactly? And why?The guy is a sack of shit, but I'm against legally treating a fetus as a separate person because it gives the anti-abortion advocates ammunition. "How can it be murder when someone else kills a fetus, but not when an abortion doctor does it?" It also opens the mother up to charges for harming the fetus through her actions. Should mothers who smoke or drink be charged with poisoning the fetus? What about if they do it before they know they're pregnant and stop afterward?I agree, but I do believe if it is born and has fetal alcohol syndrome or damage from smoking, it should be taken away immediately.
I don't support abortion up until the moment of birth, but IMHO a fetus should not be a legal person until it's actually born.
I mean, if the infant is born with FAS, it should be in the foster system. There's also birth defects caused by smoking, and those should also get the kid taken from the parents.Taken away... to where, exactly? And why?The guy is a sack of shit, but I'm against legally treating a fetus as a separate person because it gives the anti-abortion advocates ammunition. "How can it be murder when someone else kills a fetus, but not when an abortion doctor does it?" It also opens the mother up to charges for harming the fetus through her actions. Should mothers who smoke or drink be charged with poisoning the fetus? What about if they do it before they know they're pregnant and stop afterward?I agree, but I do believe if it is born and has fetal alcohol syndrome or damage from smoking, it should be taken away immediately.
I don't support abortion up until the moment of birth, but IMHO a fetus should not be a legal person until it's actually born.
From what I know, the most probable fate of a child with FAS in the foster system is so bad that if all the mother did was smoke and drink during pregnancy(knowingly or unknowingly? you didn't specify) I think it'd have better odds staying with her.
The guy is a sack of shit, but I'm against legally treating a fetus as a separate person because it gives the anti-abortion advocates ammunition. "How can it be murder when someone else kills a fetus, but not when an abortion doctor does it?" It also opens the mother up to charges for harming the fetus through her actions. Should mothers who smoke or drink be charged with poisoning the fetus? What about if they do it before they know they're pregnant and stop afterward?
I don't support abortion up until the moment of birth, but IMHO a fetus should not be a legal person until it's actually born.
I know how to answer that conundrum.....what Mr. Slimy McMenowantbaby did was as anti-choice as banning abortion. The woman wanted to keep the baby but this turkey didn't. It goes both ways. If a woman wants an abortion, that's her right. If a woman want's to go through with the pregnancy & birth the little one, that's her right too. This guy violated this woman's rights (and hurt her in the process).
He definitely took her choice away, and he should be charged for harming her. But he should not be charged with murder. Treating a fetus as a legal person under any circumstances opens up a can of worms and gives fuel to the antis.
I mean, if the infant is born with FAS, it should be in the foster system. There's also birth defects caused by smoking, and those should also get the kid taken from the parents.Taken away... to where, exactly? And why?The guy is a sack of shit, but I'm against legally treating a fetus as a separate person because it gives the anti-abortion advocates ammunition. "How can it be murder when someone else kills a fetus, but not when an abortion doctor does it?" It also opens the mother up to charges for harming the fetus through her actions. Should mothers who smoke or drink be charged with poisoning the fetus? What about if they do it before they know they're pregnant and stop afterward?I agree, but I do believe if it is born and has fetal alcohol syndrome or damage from smoking, it should be taken away immediately.
I don't support abortion up until the moment of birth, but IMHO a fetus should not be a legal person until it's actually born.
From what I know, the most probable fate of a child with FAS in the foster system is so bad that if all the mother did was smoke and drink during pregnancy(knowingly or unknowingly? you didn't specify) I think it'd have better odds staying with her.
Or, alternatively, grow up in a household that clearly does not give a single solitary flying shit about them, as proven by the fact that their mother chose to drink. I'd obviously want them to aim to place the child with family that isn't idiots, though. But, if the options are abusive family or system kid, I'd prefer system kid, because there's a chance for hope. It's not like we can just kill FAS babies. That would likely be considered unethical and evil. So, our options are to leave them with a mom who gives not a fuck, or try to find family or a loving alternative family.I mean, if the infant is born with FAS, it should be in the foster system. There's also birth defects caused by smoking, and those should also get the kid taken from the parents.Taken away... to where, exactly? And why?The guy is a sack of shit, but I'm against legally treating a fetus as a separate person because it gives the anti-abortion advocates ammunition. "How can it be murder when someone else kills a fetus, but not when an abortion doctor does it?" It also opens the mother up to charges for harming the fetus through her actions. Should mothers who smoke or drink be charged with poisoning the fetus? What about if they do it before they know they're pregnant and stop afterward?I agree, but I do believe if it is born and has fetal alcohol syndrome or damage from smoking, it should be taken away immediately.
I don't support abortion up until the moment of birth, but IMHO a fetus should not be a legal person until it's actually born.
From what I know, the most probable fate of a child with FAS in the foster system is so bad that if all the mother did was smoke and drink during pregnancy(knowingly or unknowingly? you didn't specify) I think it'd have better odds staying with her.
So that they can basically grow up never getting adopted and then getting booted out of the system when they hit 18?
Or, alternatively, grow up in a household that clearly does not give a single solitary flying shit about them, as proven by the fact that their mother chose to drink. I'd obviously want them to aim to place the child with family that isn't idiots, though. But, if the options are abusive family or system kid, I'd prefer system kid, because there's a chance for hope. It's not like we can just kill FAS babies. That would likely be considered unethical and evil. So, our options are to leave them with a mom who gives not a fuck, or try to find family or a loving alternative family.I mean, if the infant is born with FAS, it should be in the foster system. There's also birth defects caused by smoking, and those should also get the kid taken from the parents.Taken away... to where, exactly? And why?The guy is a sack of shit, but I'm against legally treating a fetus as a separate person because it gives the anti-abortion advocates ammunition. "How can it be murder when someone else kills a fetus, but not when an abortion doctor does it?" It also opens the mother up to charges for harming the fetus through her actions. Should mothers who smoke or drink be charged with poisoning the fetus? What about if they do it before they know they're pregnant and stop afterward?I agree, but I do believe if it is born and has fetal alcohol syndrome or damage from smoking, it should be taken away immediately.
I don't support abortion up until the moment of birth, but IMHO a fetus should not be a legal person until it's actually born.
From what I know, the most probable fate of a child with FAS in the foster system is so bad that if all the mother did was smoke and drink during pregnancy(knowingly or unknowingly? you didn't specify) I think it'd have better odds staying with her.
So that they can basically grow up never getting adopted and then getting booted out of the system when they hit 18?
Eh, fuck the anti's, they will never understand the subtleties and nuances of a complex issue anyway. Some of them are so black and white in their thinking that rape and incest are gifts from god and that ending needless and ultimately fatal pain and suffering of a fetus or self preservation of the mother is simply selfish. The reality is that a fetus has as much or as little value as its mother ascribes to it. If she wants it, it is a baby, and killing it is murder to her. If she doesn't want it, it is an invasive clump of cells growing in her body that she is free to dispose of. Of course, understanding and accepting that a fetus can be two things simultaneously depending on where you are looking at it from is far too complex for these people.Something's/Someone's status and value as a person/potential person is not determined by the feelings or intensity of feelings of one other person.
Personally, I have no problem with a murder charge -- if that is what the mother wants because that is what the loss is to her.Justice is not only about placating the victim/the victim's relatives. If you want to give someone a murder trial, there needs to be the death of a person involved somewhere. 'It emotionally felt like murder' is not sufficient.
Sorry, but doesn't this kind of law generally apply to violence or abuse of pregnant women? How is it different that instead of kicking her down stairs or punching her in the gut he slipped her the pill. Same result.That's not what I meant. Yes, her feelings matter about whether it was a consensual abortion and therefore no crime, or a nonconsensual abortion and therefore a crime. Her feelings however do not matter whether it's assault(on her) only, or assault and murder.
And yes, in this case the mother's feelings about the blob of cells are utterly relevant as they're her cells. If she wants rid of them she can, if she wants to keep them she can. Anyone else making those decisions will face punishment under the law. That'd be a minimum requirement to having control over her pregnancy. If you're arguing against this you're arguing that forced abortion is acceptable, at least to some degree. Something you probably want to think about.
Sorry, but doesn't this kind of law generally apply to violence or abuse of pregnant women? How is it different that instead of kicking her down stairs or punching her in the gut he slipped her the pill. Same result.I don't see forced abortion as acceptable, and that goes for any situation. I just don't see it as murder.
And yes, in this case the mother's feelings about the blob of cells are utterly relevant as they're her cells. If she wants rid of them she can, if she wants to keep them she can. Anyone else making those decisions will face punishment under the law. That'd be a minimum requirement to having control over her pregnancy. If you're arguing against this you're arguing that forced abortion is acceptable, at least to some degree. Something you probably want to think about.
I don't see forced abortion as acceptable, and that goes for any situation. I just don't see it as murder.
As far as sentencing goes, a couple years jail time (with a chance of early release for involvement in inmate programs and good behavior) followed by a few years probation sounds about right to me. What this guy did is utterly despicable, but life in prison should be reserved for people who are demonstratively beyond rehabilitation.Yeah. At this rate, I hope the jury finds him not guilty, because he's facing a mandatory life sentence if found guilty.