FSTDT Forums
Community => Politics and Government => Topic started by: ironbite on August 12, 2013, 04:19:18 pm
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Source: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/07/30/russia-anti-gay-olympic-games-sochi_n_3676311.html
Despite assurance by the International Olympic Committee July 26 that attendees of the 2014 Olympic Games in Sochi would not be held under the jurisdiction of Russia's anti-gay legislation, the law's co-sponsor is now articulating a different set of circumstances. Vitaly Milonov, the politician responsible for the "gay propaganda" ban in St. Petersburg later adopted by the country as a whole, claims that the law cannot be selectively enforced nor suspended.
In an interview with Interfax, Milonov stated:
I haven’t heard any comments from the government of the Russian Federation, but I know that it is acting in accordance with Russian law. And if a law has been approved by the federal legislature and signed by the president, then the government has no right to suspend it. It doesn’t have the authority.
In effect, it seems as if foreign athletes and spectators at the 2014 Olympic Games will, in fact, be subject to the legalities of Russia's recent stream of anti-LGBT legislation. Signed into law by President Vladimir Putin on June 30, the legislation gives the Russian government agency to detain gay or "pro-gay" foreigners up to 14 days before facing expulsion from the country.
Perhaps most disturbing out of this recent interview with Milonov is the claim that he has "spoken with many American politicians" and that "they support the stance I’ve taken on this issue." He also cites support from German legislators surrounding the anti-gay crackdown.
This is rather disturbing but I figured it would happen. Russia does not give fuck one about what's going on in the rest of the world. All they want to do is keep the gays not as second-class citizens but as non-entities in an effort to...well I have not clue what these laws are gonna do but damn it we need to take a stand.
No American involvement in the 2014 Winter Games. That would be taking a stand. Sadly it'll never happen.
Ironbite-cause who gives a damn about people being persecuted for something that defines them.
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Russia is really degenerating into a shithole lately.
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Russia is really degenerating into a shithole lately.
At least for us gays, bis, and lesbians and our allies. I don't even know what Russia thinks of transpeople yet.
It's too bad I don't watch the Olympics, otherwise I'd abstain from watching it in 2014. As it stands now, though, I'll just be doing what I've done with every Olympics game.
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I never watch the Olympics anyway...
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I don't watch the games either. To be honest, I just don't see what the appeal is.
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I love the olympics. It's one of the few sporting events I actually watch.
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But what about the Olympic orgy?
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Only reason I watch the olympics is for fencing. Beyond that, it can fuck off.
And I'm pretty sure if Russia tried to arrest any member of the American Olympic team, there'd be some ass kicking going on.
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I don't watch the games either and as far as Russia is concerned, haven't they been sliding down this way for a while now?
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You know, ever since they chose Russia as the host, I've been expecting something like this. Ever since Putin the would-be Czar took over, that country has just been getting rotten. What does it say when I'm honestly expecting the impoverished and crime-ridden city of Rio to be a better Olympic host than the entire nation of Russia?
Also, I seem to be unlike a lot of you in that I enjoy the Olympics. I don't even enjoy most organized sports, but there's something about the wonderful international spirit that I just love. Trust Putin to screw all that up.
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Only interest i ever had in the olympics was when it went to london and went psycho with the branding and copyright laws.
And lgbt laws there are messed up, being gay was only declared to not be a mental ilness in 1999, however being transgender there is legal and you have the right to officially change it on paper
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I've actually expected worse events to happen in the 2014 Olympics. Consider it's hosted in Sochi, a town close to the Caucasus and separatist states like Chechnya (which there will never be a nice day there again as far as I know), my fears have been terrorist attacks by organizations brutally disenchanted by the national policy of Russia and Vladimir Putin. But now we have a problem that I feel the National Olympics Committee would legitimately pull away the host city, that being the government-led discrimination and dehumanization of homosexuals and even the plans to lead homosexual or pro-gay athletes to imprisonment, or worse than being in a Russian prison: torture and death. For the sexual preference or not being openly hostile to homosexuals.
Also, I'll just leave this here: It's nice to know there are more people here who enjoy watching the Olympics when the games are on, and I don't like sporting events.
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The Russians are being idiots if they don't think this will cause them any problems down the line. It's almost like they're TRYING to start something. I really hope they don't arrest anyone in the Olympics over this stupid law. That's to say nothing of the bordering areas that might cause other problems.
And to the makers of that stupid law, if there were a hell, I'd throw you into it.
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This may just be me playing devils advocate, but would we be having this discussion if the Olympic games were say held in Saudi Arabia? They treat gays far worse than the Russian laws do, not to mention how they treat 50% of the worlds population. I doubt we would suddenly expect them to suspend their laws because of the Olympics. Perhaps we expect it because in a country like Russia there is still a large degree of freedom of speech, while at the same time these laws are quite new that we expect their laws to no longer matter.
I think the only reason why such a consideration should be made is if the selection of Russia for the Olympics was done before the new law, and had such a law existed before hand it would have excluded Russia from selection. In which case the only option is to just up and change locations denying Russia the right to host.
As much as we may hate these laws, and think they are supremely stupid, we must respect another nations right to self determination.
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This may just be me playing devils advocate, but would we be having this discussion if the Olympic games were say held in Saudi Arabia? They treat gays far worse than the Russian laws do, not to mention how they treat 50% of the worlds population. I doubt we would suddenly expect them to suspend their laws because of the Olympics. Perhaps we expect it because in a country like Russia there is still a large degree of freedom of speech, while at the same time these laws are quite new that we expect their laws to no longer matter.
I think the only reason why such a consideration should be made is if the selection of Russia for the Olympics was done before the new law, and had such a law existed before hand it would have excluded Russia from selection. In which case the only option is to just up and change locations denying Russia the right to host.
As much as we may hate these laws, and think they are supremely stupid, we must respect another nations right to self determination.
However usually Saudi Arabia (at least Qatar) would not arrest gay players from different countries. And while true the respect thing can only truly apply in a democracy and Russia is not
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This may just be me playing devils advocate, but would we be having this discussion if the Olympic games were say held in Saudi Arabia? They treat gays far worse than the Russian laws do, not to mention how they treat 50% of the worlds population. I doubt we would suddenly expect them to suspend their laws because of the Olympics. Perhaps we expect it because in a country like Russia there is still a large degree of freedom of speech, while at the same time these laws are quite new that we expect their laws to no longer matter.
I think the only reason why such a consideration should be made is if the selection of Russia for the Olympics was done before the new law, and had such a law existed before hand it would have excluded Russia from selection. In which case the only option is to just up and change locations denying Russia the right to host.
As much as we may hate these laws, and think they are supremely stupid, we must respect another nations right to self determination.
Well, first I don't think Saudi Arabia would be considered for the Olympics, but if it were, yes I would expect them to change the law. Russia is just more prominent in the world because it is attempting to be "developed".
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When the Olympics are happening in Sochi, a lot of athletes are going to provoke this law (and the IOC 'no politics' rule') with various statements and actions.
I don't think the Russian national authorities are stupid enough to actually try to arrest any athletes, even if some smaller figures are beating their chests about it now. What will happen though is a lot of awkward censoring in the Russian media and outcries by anti-gay groups, which will set the Russian public's attention to this issue (I don't know how big of an issue it is in Russia at the moment, but it'll definitely be then). Some will be angry at the perverted Western provocateurs. But I also think that the law is going to lose respect if some people are allowed to flaunt their violations so publicly.
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I also think that if they'd follow through with the arrests, the jails & prisons would be WAY OVERFLOWING & the cops overloaded. It wouldn't be practical. On top of that, it's bad business & PR.
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Depends on how many people decide to defy them. If it's just a couple of hundred, I'm sure they can handle it. Remember, not everyone will care enough to protest. Some will think it's bad, but not worth going to jail over, or losing their shot at becoming the best in their chosen field. Others may even agree with the Russian government's position. And some may believe that the Olympics shouldn't be used to espouse any political/religious belief, even if they agree with it.
You can't always count on people to agree on what the right thing is, let alone to do it.
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One thing of note is that Moscow is currently hosting the IAAF World Championships, and I haven't heard of any arrests for this stuff as yet.
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I think we should get as many athletes as possible - including entire teams of prominent nations - to declare their support for gay rights.
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You mean something like the black power activists at the... which one was it again? '68? I feel really stupid unable to remember that. But back on topic, yeah, I'm pretty sure there's a large number of athletes who would be willing to take a stand, even if they aren't gay themselves. Olympians seem to be more liberal, at least from what I've seen.
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Whatever the case, I think there's going to be a lot of pro-homosexuality stuff going on at the Olympics purely out of protest at the host country. Russia can do whatever they want, but there's a lot of people who are willing to take a stand and risk arrest if it means they can publicly shame the country arresting them. The fact that they're going to be on such a prominent stage as the Olympic Games only increases the chance that something will happen.
I think if Russia actually had any foreign athletes arrested, it would be a total shitstorm. Especially the ones who came from very liberal or otherwise pro-gay countries.
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You mean something like the black power activists at the... which one was it again? '68? I feel really stupid unable to remember that. But back on topic, yeah, I'm pretty sure there's a large number of athletes who would be willing to take a stand, even if they aren't gay themselves. Olympians seem to be more liberal, at least from what I've seen.
1968 Mexico City:
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/c/c8/Carlos-Smith.jpg)
(The third guy in that picture, Peter Norman, also saw his career go down the drain because of it.)
It's also worth keeping in mind that Russia is also hosting the FIFA World Cup in 2018. If bad stuff happens at the Olympics, I wonder if FIFA would move it...
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The Black Panthers are a tad different from gay rights. They actually had a poor reputation as essentially terrorists. An athlete in 2014 who publicly supports homosexuality is probably going to be praised instead of ostracized.
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The Black Panthers are a tad different from gay rights. They actually had a poor reputation as essentially terrorists. An athlete in 2014 who publicly supports homosexuality is probably going to be praised instead of ostracized.
Carlos and Smith weren't ostracized as such; Brundage forced the US Olympic team to kick them out (by threatening to kick out the entire US Olympic team, or at least the athletics team). Norman was ostracized in Australia, but that was pretty much because the Australian government was incredibly racist (and he was an outspoken critic of the White Australia policy).
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You mean something like the black power activists at the... which one was it again? '68? I feel really stupid unable to remember that. But back on topic, yeah, I'm pretty sure there's a large number of athletes who would be willing to take a stand, even if they aren't gay themselves. Olympians seem to be more liberal, at least from what I've seen.
1968 Mexico City:
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/c/c8/Carlos-Smith.jpg)
(The third guy in that picture, Peter Norman, also saw his career go down the drain because of it.)
It's also worth keeping in mind that Russia is also hosting the FIFA World Cup in 2018. If bad stuff happens at the Olympics, I wonder if FIFA would move it...
It was Norman who provided the gloves. They told him beforehand that they were going to do the fist salute so he could decide whether or not to stand there and he came up with the gloves.
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Kinda. They were actually Smith's gloves. Smith and Carlos had planned on wearing gloves for the event, but Carlos forgot his back at the village Norman suggested they split the pair. That's why they're using different hands.
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Well, here's (http://www.cbc.ca/sports/trackandfield/story/2013/08/15/sp-iaaf-world-championships-sweden-emma-green-tregaro.html) something more about it.
Summary: Russian pole vaulter (arguably one of the best of all time) says stuff in support of Russia's law. Meanwhile, two Swedes competed with their fingernails painted in the colours of the rainbow.
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Fret not folks, the Olympics will bankrupt Russia too.
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http://en.ria.ru/russia/20130812/182723811/Russia-Confirms-Anti-Gay-Law-Will-Be-Enforced-at-Olympics.html
It's been confirmed beyond a couple of low-level people talking about it.
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Sure, it'll be "enforced" long enough for shit to hit the fan. At which point they'll decide that it's not worth the trouble and bad publicity to harass and arrest Olympians and their entourage who protest them.
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Sure, it'll be "enforced" long enough for shit to hit the fan. At which point they'll decide that it's not worth the trouble and bad publicity to harass and arrest Olympians and their entourage who protest them.
Harassing Olympians?! I heard that one of them can throw lightning bolts and turn into a swan and the others have some freaky powers as well, I would not dare to mess with them.
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Oh, and now that Swedish high jumper who painted her nails in the colours of the rainbow has been forced to paint them differently. Apparently protesting Russia's law is a violation of the IAAF World Championships' Code of Conduct. (http://www.cbc.ca/sports/trackandfield/story/2013/08/17/sp-track-field-olympics-gay-rights-swedish-athlete-support.html)
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The general secretary of the Swedish athletics federation said earlier Saturday that the IAAF, the sport's governing body, had warned them that Green Tregaro may have violated the code of conduct.
"They were saying that this was by definition a breach of the regulations, not saying anything else, really," Anders Albertsson said. "We have informed our athletes about this."
Green Tregaro said that Swedish officials were standing by her.
"But I didn't want the federation to experience any consequences in any way for my choice," Green Tregaro said.
Weaseling out.
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Oh, and now that Swedish high jumper who painted her nails in the colours of the rainbow has been forced to paint them differently. Apparently protesting Russia's law is a violation of the IAAF World Championships' Code of Conduct. (http://www.cbc.ca/sports/trackandfield/story/2013/08/17/sp-track-field-olympics-gay-rights-swedish-athlete-support.html)
Oh, this just keeps getting better and better.
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Yet another example of chickenshit politics. "We can't rock the boat, they might get mad at us...OOGABOOGABOOGABOOGA!!"
I want five minutes alone with these cravens and a cluebat. I salute the high jumper, and want to kick the IAAF people in the screws.
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Have some very brave Russians:
(http://31.media.tumblr.com/dc52193ca68fbda44002b7c81a276242/tumblr_mrpyyuLHxt1s3ggdno2_500.png)
(http://31.media.tumblr.com/c789a7e2ac7dc8890cc238c485757c51/tumblr_mrpyyuLHxt1s3ggdno6_r1_500.jpg)
(http://31.media.tumblr.com/d257003369fe8363384b53ad83253a70/tumblr_mrpyyuLHxt1s3ggdno1_500.jpg)
After winning the 4X400m gold at the the world athletics championships held august 17 on their home soil, russian athletes kseniya ryzhova and tatyana firova defy and protest the country’s new anti-gay law with a public kiss.
Part of me wants this to spark a mass protest over the Olympics.
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That's hardly a kiss. Their mouths aren't even aligned. They're basically just pressing their faces together.
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That's hardly a kiss. Their mouths aren't even aligned. They're basically just pressing their faces together.
Maybe they aren't lesbians and are only doing this as a form of protest? That would explain the awkwardness.
In this particular case I support them either way because having the Russian team do this type of protest has much greater effect than having a rival team do it, which would simply give Russians a reason to reduce their rivals in the games. Now they either have to disregard their law in order to have success in the games (which makes them look like hypocritical douchebags) or jail the players (which still makes them douchebags but also angers sports fans in Russia and will cost them medals, which is a bad thing considering how political the olympics are.)
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That's hardly a kiss. Their mouths aren't even aligned. They're basically just pressing their faces together.
Maybe they aren't lesbians and are only doing this as a form of protest? That would explain the awkwardness.
There's a reason I didn't call it a lesbian kiss or call them lesbians. From where I'm standing it looked very much like a protest move.
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That's hardly a kiss. Their mouths aren't even aligned. They're basically just pressing their faces together.
Maybe they aren't lesbians and are only doing this as a form of protest? That would explain the awkwardness.
In this particular case I support them either way because having the Russian team do this type of protest has much greater effect than having a rival team do it, which would simply give Russians a reason to reduce their rivals in the games. Now they either have to disregard their law in order to have success in the games (which makes them look like hypocritical douchebags) or jail the players (which still makes them douchebags but also angers sports fans in Russia and will cost them medals, which is a bad thing considering how political the olympics are.)
It doesn't count if it's not a proper kiss. Them's the rules.
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That's hardly a kiss. Their mouths aren't even aligned. They're basically just pressing their faces together.
Maybe they aren't lesbians and are only doing this as a form of protest? That would explain the awkwardness.
In this particular case I support them either way because having the Russian team do this type of protest has much greater effect than having a rival team do it, which would simply give Russians a reason to reduce their rivals in the games. Now they either have to disregard their law in order to have success in the games (which makes them look like hypocritical douchebags) or jail the players (which still makes them douchebags but also angers sports fans in Russia and will cost them medals, which is a bad thing considering how political the olympics are.)
It doesn't count if it's not a proper kiss. Them's the rules.
Personally I would only count it if they started scissoring.
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Oh wait, I thought we were discussing the discriminatory laws in Russia and how homosexuals are arrested and/or beaten and how people are now trying to protest this treatment. But if you guys just want some lesbian porn then I bet you could find like... ALL OF IT from other sites on the internet.
I just wish we could have a serious discussion about something for like five minutes.
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Okay, getting this back on topic:
During the 1936 Summer Olympics, Hitler did not want any Jews or blacks to compete. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1936_Summer_Olympics) They only relented after a campaign led by civil rights groups in other nations raised enough public outcry. Hopefully that's what will happen here.
Personally I feel like boycotting anything Olympic this year and using it as an opportunity to raise discussion of the discriminatory laws :/
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Okay, getting this back on topic:
During the 1936 Summer Olympics, Hitler did not want any Jews or blacks to compete. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1936_Summer_Olympics) They only relented after a campaign led by civil rights groups in other nations raised enough public outcry. Hopefully that's what will happen here.
Personally I feel like boycotting anything Olympic this year and using it as an opportunity to raise discussion of the discriminatory laws :/
Yeah that's what I'm really hoping for. Hence why I posted the two athletes. Cause I think any type of protest gives hope.
I do know 1) I won't be watching the Olympics and 2) I won't be visiting Russia even tho I could have a potential in the next couple of years to do so. and 3) I hope people don't seriously think boycotting vodka is gonna help a single iota.
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I never understood how boycotting vodka would actually do anything helpful. All that does is hurt the companies that make the vodka, which are completely separate entities from the Russian government. What a dumb idea.
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I never understood how boycotting vodka would actually do anything helpful. All that does is hurt the companies that make the vodka, which are completely separate entities from the Russian government. What a dumb idea.
Quite a number of them aren't even in Russia, so you're not even taking away corporate tax revenue from the Russian government by boycotting their vodka.
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http://img.yle.fi/uutiset/kotimaa/article6784613.ece/ALTERNATES/w960/paavo+arhinm%C3%A4ki+sateenkaarilippu+moskova+mm-kisat.jpg
Paavo Arhinmäki, the Finnish minister for culture and sport is seen in the picture waving a rainbow flag in Moscow during the World Track & Field Championships.
He felt that this the new anti-gay laws of Russia must be protested against and has defended his actions in the Finnish media. The Russian media is quiet about the matter but homophobes on the internet are frothing from their mouths.
This is the first time that I support the actions of Arhinmäki.
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http://img.yle.fi/uutiset/kotimaa/article6784613.ece/ALTERNATES/w960/paavo+arhinm%C3%A4ki+sateenkaarilippu+moskova+mm-kisat.jpg
Paavo Arhinmäki, the Finnish minister for culture and sport is seen in the picture waving a rainbow flag in Moscow during the World Track & Field Championships.
He felt that this the new anti-gay laws of Russia must be protested against and has defended his actions in the Finnish media. The Russian media is quiet about the matter but homophobes on the internet are frothing from their mouths.
This is the first time that I support the actions of Arhinmäki.
Am I wrong in thinking that given past history, Finland enjoys telling Russia to go fuck its hat every so often?
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http://img.yle.fi/uutiset/kotimaa/article6784613.ece/ALTERNATES/w960/paavo+arhinm%C3%A4ki+sateenkaarilippu+moskova+mm-kisat.jpg
Paavo Arhinmäki, the Finnish minister for culture and sport is seen in the picture waving a rainbow flag in Moscow during the World Track & Field Championships.
He felt that this the new anti-gay laws of Russia must be protested against and has defended his actions in the Finnish media. The Russian media is quiet about the matter but homophobes on the internet are frothing from their mouths.
This is the first time that I support the actions of Arhinmäki.
Am I wrong in thinking that given past history, Finland enjoys telling Russia to go fuck its hat every so often?
You better believe it, son.
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Wentworth Miller came out as gay after Russia sent him an invitation to come to their country for a film festival.
"Thank you for your kind invitation. As someone who has enjoyed visiting Russia in the past and can also claim a degree of Russian ancestry, it would make me happy to say yes," the 41 year old wrote in a letter to Maria Averbakh, director of the St. Petersburg International Film Festival. "However, as a gay man, I must decline."
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Just an update on that Arhinmäki protest thing.
http://www.finlandtimes.fi/national/2013/08/21/2106/Controversy-over-waving-%E2%80%98Rainbow%E2%80%99-flag-in-Moscow-by-Arhinm%C3%A4ki
Lots of loud protests against Arhinmäki because of his stunt. Mostly from homophobes but some are just concerned of what the Russians might do and how this could trouble our economy (Export to Russia has been increasing and helping our economy.)
But mostly it's just the homophobes and fundies. Two things that annoy me, that I am now taking the side of a leftist in this trainwreck and that so many of the fundies/homophobes are from my party. Well at least some of the complainers are also from the left as well. Stuff like "You were supposed to fight for the rights of the workers, not the rights of some faggots."
Also, I consider it funny that the one guy in Finland to protest against the Russian law is from Vasemmistoliitto (left wing union) which was formed from the four communist parties of Finland.
[There were several parties, The communist party of Finland had been formed in 1918 in Russia from the reds that escaped after losing the civil war, The democratic union of Finnish people and Democratic union of Finnish women formed by leftists in Finland in 1944 after communism became legal again and The democratic choice was formed by communists who had been kicked out of other parties due to disagreements. And this still leaves several leftist/communist parties in Finland. This ends the useless history lesson.]
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Wow, that Finnish history really shows how hard it is to unite leftist like myself. I'm reminded of the joke From Monty Python's Life of Brian:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gb_qHP7VaZE
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Lots of loud protests against Arhinmäki because of his stunt. Mostly from homophobes but some are just concerned of what the Russians might do and how this could trouble our economy (Export to Russia has been increasing and helping our economy.)
If Russia started refusing trade with countries that protested their human rights violations, it would harm the Russians more than the people that they're "punishing." The Russian economic situation isn't exactly top notch, and they're only hurting themselves if they don't bite their tongues or start reconsidering their bigotry.
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Lots of loud protests against Arhinmäki because of his stunt. Mostly from homophobes but some are just concerned of what the Russians might do and how this could trouble our economy (Export to Russia has been increasing and helping our economy.)
If Russia started refusing trade with countries that protested their human rights violations, it would harm the Russians more than the people that they're "punishing." The Russian economic situation isn't exactly top notch, and they're only hurting themselves if they don't bite their tongues or start reconsidering their bigotry.
It could very well give incentive for other countries to start investing in Finland simply out of spite. And people taking whatever Russian investments they have to greener pastures.
But, keep going right on at it, Putin. Russia's overdue for another revolt, anyway.
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Lots of loud protests against Arhinmäki because of his stunt. Mostly from homophobes but some are just concerned of what the Russians might do and how this could trouble our economy (Export to Russia has been increasing and helping our economy.)
If Russia started refusing trade with countries that protested their human rights violations, it would harm the Russians more than the people that they're "punishing." The Russian economic situation isn't exactly top notch, and they're only hurting themselves if they don't bite their tongues or start reconsidering their bigotry.
It could very well give incentive for other countries to start investing in Finland simply out of spite. And people taking whatever Russian investments they have to greener pastures.
But, keep going right on at it, Putin. Russia's overdue for another revolt, anyway.
Investing out of spite or for any other such emotional reasons is one of the quickest ways to lose your money.