FSTDT Forums
Community => Politics and Government => Topic started by: Dakota Bob on August 29, 2013, 01:27:27 pm
-
At this point, we'll probably need one large mega-thread to compile all the disgusting shit the Russian government is doing now.
Lawmakers seek to implement more anti-LGBT measures. a ban on donating blood and a "voluntary" gay-to-straight conversion service (http://rt.com/politics/gay-russian-donors-law-993/)
-
Wait... Russia has been more progressive on the blood thing than America? Odd. Is it just me, or is Russia basically just becoming more American?
-
Try Nazi Germany.
Ironbite-only with gays instead of Jews.
-
Try Nazi Germany.
Ironbite-only with gays instead of Jews.
True, but I was mainly taking about the South, who control way too much. That said, Russia is acting like Nazis to gay people (well, so did the Nazis) and Israel is basically run by anti-Palestinian Nazi Jews. Are Nazis going to be a thing every century?
-
Try Nazi Germany.
Ironbite-only with gays instead of Jews.
True, but I was mainly taking about the South, who control way too much. That said, Russia is acting like Nazis to gay people (well, so did the Nazis) and Israel is basically run by anti-Palestinian Nazi Jews. Are Nazis going to be a thing every century?
Probably, however I really hope it doesn't come to that.
-
I just want to know, why is the Russian government so into this big homophobic pogrom thing, all of the sudden? Something must have triggered Putin to wake up one day & go "I think I'll start a big anti-homosexual pogrom, today". Now, I know that homophobia's big in Russia but I still wonder what was the catalyst?
-
I just want to know, why I the Russian government so into this big homophobic pogrom thing, all of the sudden? Something must have triggered Putin to wake up one day & go "I think I'll start a big anti-homosexual pogrom, today". Now, I know that homophobia's big in Russia but I still wonder what was the catalyst?
He needs a safe target to focus the pent up anger of the country on so they don't look inwards at the real problems. The break away republics were good, but constant low-level wars are getting too expensive for his shitty economy. Supporting Syria just to spite the Americans worked well too, but a real fight would be bad and frankly Syria is getting to the point where even Putin can't support the government for much longer without looking lite a twat to his own supporters.
Throw in the uber alpha male persona he constantly tries to project and it's made to order. The only way it could be more blatant would be for him to say that lesbians, the good looking ones at least, are okay and we shouldn't persecute them.
-
Wasn't there a write up within the last week about how they're invading random gay peoples homes on "suspected crimes"?
-
History, in my perspective, is cyclical.
Every century, there will be another Nazi Party.
-
Only eight posts in and already we've had two Godwins. That must be a new record of some sort.
-
Only eight posts in and already we've had two Godwins. That must be a new record of some sort.
meh, i've seen worse on the old boards, hell it was so bad 5th post onwards they were meta-godwinning. and besides, putin ain't no nazi, he's a czar in all but name :P
-
History, in my perspective, is cyclical.
Every century, there will be another Nazi Party.
The Nazis are pretty darn unique.
-
History, in my perspective, is cyclical.
Every century, there will be another Nazi Party.
The Nazis are pretty darn unique.
Not really. Russia + Israel for this century. The Nazis for the 1900s. The CSA for the 1800s. I'm sure bigger history buffs can point out regimes that thought some group of people were inferior and enslaved or wiped them out.
Only eight posts in and already we've had two Godwins. That must be a new record of some sort.
You know, the problem with Godwin's law is that it's abused to shut down any comparisons. I'm sorry, but are you saying that a powerful government blaming specific groups of people for all their issues, stealing all their land, wiping them out and making them second class citizens isn't Naziesque?
-
You know, the problem with Godwin's law is that it's abused to shut down any comparisons. I'm sorry, but are you saying that a powerful government blaming specific groups of people for all their issues, stealing all their land, wiping them out and making them second class citizens isn't Naziesque?
Unless they're actually rounding them up and placing them in death camps in an attempt to methodically wipe them all out, then it's still a hyperbole.
-
You know, the problem with Godwin's law is that it's abused to shut down any comparisons. I'm sorry, but are you saying that a powerful government blaming specific groups of people for all their issues, stealing all their land, wiping them out and making them second class citizens isn't Naziesque?
Unless they're actually rounding them up and placing them in death camps in an attempt to methodically wipe them all out, then it's still a hyperbole.
What if they're bulldozing their houses, stripping them of all their rights and bombing their cities? Is it hyperbole still? Because if not, we still have goddamn Nazi Jews.
-
You know, the problem with Godwin's law is that it's abused to shut down any comparisons. I'm sorry, but are you saying that a powerful government blaming specific groups of people for all their issues, stealing all their land, wiping them out and making them second class citizens isn't Naziesque?
Unless they're actually rounding them up and placing them in death camps in an attempt to methodically wipe them all out, then it's still a hyperbole.
What if they're bulldozing their houses, stripping them of all their rights and bombing their cities? Is it hyperbole still? Because if not, we still have goddamn Nazi Jews.
Again, are they rounding them up and forcing them into death camps? No? Well, then, a comparison to Nazis is nothing more than the world's most overused appeal to emotion.
Also, not sure what this actually has to do with gays in Russia, unless of course there are gay cities throughout Russia that are currently being bombed.
-
You know, the problem with Godwin's law is that it's abused to shut down any comparisons. I'm sorry, but are you saying that a powerful government blaming specific groups of people for all their issues, stealing all their land, wiping them out and making them second class citizens isn't Naziesque?
Unless they're actually rounding them up and placing them in death camps in an attempt to methodically wipe them all out, then it's still a hyperbole.
What if they're bulldozing their houses, stripping them of all their rights and bombing their cities? Is it hyperbole still? Because if not, we still have goddamn Nazi Jews.
Again, are they rounding them up and forcing them into death camps? No? Well, then, a comparison to Nazis is nothing more than the world's most overused appeal to emotion.
Also, not sure what this actually has to do with gays in Russia, unless of course there are gay cities throughout Russia that are currently being bombed.
I'm talking about Israel there, saying that even if Russia doesn't count, Israel does. And, did the Nazis start immediately by doing that? No. Therefore, they are early-stage Nazis.
-
I'm talking about Israel there, saying that even if Russia doesn't count, Israel does. And, did the Nazis start immediately by doing that? No. Therefore, they are early-stage Nazis.
...They are early-stage Nazis, you say? So they believe in German supremacy and Jewish inferiority, do they? If I were to go to Israel, I'd see them proudly flying the Swastika from every flagpole? Is their government a totalitarian dictatorship? Would checking the Israeli census show that every single citizen is a card-carrying member of the Nazi Party?
-
I'm talking about Israel there, saying that even if Russia doesn't count, Israel does. And, did the Nazis start immediately by doing that? No. Therefore, they are early-stage Nazis.
...They are early-stage Nazis, you say? So they believe in German supremacy and Jewish inferiority, do they? If I were to go to Israel, I'd see them proudly flying the Swastika from every flagpole? Is their government a totalitarian dictatorship? Would checking the Israeli census show that every single citizen is a card-carrying member of the Nazi Party?
That's illogical and you know it. Their actions are extremely similar to the Nazis, and therefore can be compared to the Nazis. Unless you completely failed all of school, you know that two things don't need to be identical to be compared. You know I wasn't being literal, and you complained in the first place that even comparing them to the Nazis would be wrong, which it isn't. The are highly similar to the Nazis, and their ideology is the same as the Nazis was at the start, just with "Germans" replaced with "Jews" and "Jews" replaced with "Palestinians". If a southern politician called for slavery, you wouldn't object to them being called a Confederate asshole. But, they're not literally a member of the Confederate States of America.
-
That's illogical and you know it. Their actions are extremely similar to the Nazis, and therefore can be compared to the Nazis. Unless you completely failed all of school, you know that two things don't need to be identical to be compared. You know I wasn't being literal, and you complained in the first place that even comparing them to the Nazis would be wrong, which it isn't. The are highly similar to the Nazis, and their ideology is the same as the Nazis was at the start, just with "Germans" replaced with "Jews" and "Jews" replaced with "Palestinians". If a southern politician called for slavery, you wouldn't object to them being called a Confederate asshole. But, they're not literally a member of the Confederate States of America.
I already explained this earlier, but since it didn't sink in the first time...
What you call "early stage Nazis" is nothing more than generic persecution. The Nazis were neither the first nor the most prolific practitioners of this sort of thing. They're no more "early stage Nazis" than they are "Romans" or "Mongolians" or "Chinese", or pretty much every single group in history that ever at some point had power over another. If they were doing things that Nazi-run Germany specifically did to eliminate those they don't like (the usual death camps, forced experimentation, all that good stuff), then it would be a valid comparison. If not, however, it serves no purpose other than an extremely tired and overused appeal to emotion.
-
*AUGH!*
DERAILED AGAIN!
Back to the subject of the Ruskies being nutskies, okay, guys?
-
Try Nazi Germany.
Ironbite-only with gays instead of Jews.
The Nazis did go after gays. Just not as hard and heavy as Russia and Greece have been doing.
With that said, stop with the comparisons already. Russia has been a bully for centuries. Even before the Nazis were heard around the world.
-
Try Nazi Germany.
Ironbite-only with gays instead of Jews.
The Nazis did go after gays. Just not as hard and heavy as Russia and Greece have been doing.
With that said, stop with the comparisons already. Russia has been a bully for centuries. Even before the Nazis were heard around the world.
So could we call the Nazis Russia-like? Because if it works one way, why not the other?
-
Try Nazi Germany.
Ironbite-only with gays instead of Jews.
The Nazis did go after gays. Just not as hard and heavy as Russia and Greece have been doing.
With that said, stop with the comparisons already. Russia has been a bully for centuries. Even before the Nazis were heard around the world.
Well much of that bullying was done by the previous regimes. So accusing them of those would be like accusing Italy for the crimes of Rome or China for what their emperors did.
I mean between change from Czars to USSR and then to the current "democratic" Russia shouldn't the country get a clean slate?
-
Lmfao. No.
-
Out of curiosity, why not?
I mean I understand going after Nazi war criminals even after the regime fell, the actual people who have done crimes against humanity/international laws or given the order to commit those are still guily. But after the regime falls and a new legally different country is born to take over the same region... Why does it inherit the old crimes?
-
Sorry apparently you posted after PHH and I didn't recognize that when I posted and moved on. Mine was in response to PHH's post.
However, in response to yours. For me, sure each regime gets a clean slate. But that doesn't erase what has happened before. It doesn't erase that you can easily look and see that Russia has changed little in the past 200 years or so. At least where their governments are concerned. Same shit, different day.
BUT, I will hold the USSR to what the USSR did and hold what Putin did to Putin. Rather than what the USSR did and hold it to Putin.
-
I just want to know, why is the Russian government so into this big homophobic pogrom thing, all of the sudden? Something must have triggered Putin to wake up one day & go "I think I'll start a big anti-homosexual pogrom, today". Now, I know that homophobia's big in Russia but I still wonder what was the catalyst?
I'm half convinced that a gay guy hit on Putin one day, and that Putin is in the closet. Staunch homophobes sure seem to be there a lot--look at Ted Haggard, Larry Craig, etc; I kept waiting for pictures of Rick Santorum and Bryan Fisher coming out of a Minneapolis airport bathroom to surface during the election last year.
-
I just want to know, why is the Russian government so into this big homophobic pogrom thing, all of the sudden? Something must have triggered Putin to wake up one day & go "I think I'll start a big anti-homosexual pogrom, today". Now, I know that homophobia's big in Russia but I still wonder what was the catalyst?
I'm half convinced that a gay guy hit on Putin one day, and that Putin is in the closet. Staunch homophobes sure seem to be there a lot--look at Ted Haggard, Larry Craig, etc; I kept waiting for pictures of Rick Santorum and Bryan Fisher coming out of a Minneapolis airport bathroom to surface during the election last year.
I figured that, too. V-Poo (as I call him) is a major closet case. Look at him! Here's a guy who plays-up the whole macho image. He got a boner for hating others like him, so he gets on the homophobic pogrom bandwagon big-time.
-
I just want to know, why is the Russian government so into this big homophobic pogrom thing, all of the sudden? Something must have triggered Putin to wake up one day & go "I think I'll start a big anti-homosexual pogrom, today". Now, I know that homophobia's big in Russia but I still wonder what was the catalyst?
I'm half convinced that a gay guy hit on Putin one day, and that Putin is in the closet. Staunch homophobes sure seem to be there a lot--look at Ted Haggard, Larry Craig, etc; I kept waiting for pictures of Rick Santorum and Bryan Fisher coming out of a Minneapolis airport bathroom to surface during the election last year.
I figured that, too. V-Poo (as I call him) is a major closet case. Look at him! Here's a guy who plays-up the whole macho image...despite looking like a hybrid of Frank Gorshin & Nobby The House Elf. He got a boner for hating others like him, so he gets on the homophobic pogrom bandwagon big-time.
You know, I'm pretty sure playing up stereotypes of gay men being "effeminate" is also homophobic.
-
I just want to know, why is the Russian government so into this big homophobic pogrom thing, all of the sudden? Something must have triggered Putin to wake up one day & go "I think I'll start a big anti-homosexual pogrom, today". Now, I know that homophobia's big in Russia but I still wonder what was the catalyst?
I'm half convinced that a gay guy hit on Putin one day, and that Putin is in the closet. Staunch homophobes sure seem to be there a lot--look at Ted Haggard, Larry Craig, etc; I kept waiting for pictures of Rick Santorum and Bryan Fisher coming out of a Minneapolis airport bathroom to surface during the election last year.
I figured that, too. V-Poo (as I call him) is a major closet case. Look at him! Here's a guy who plays-up the whole macho image...despite looking like a hybrid of Frank Gorshin & Nobby The House Elf. He got a boner for hating others like him, so he gets on the homophobic pogrom bandwagon big-time.
You know, I'm pretty sure playing up stereotypes of gay men being "effeminate" is also homophobic.
I didn't mean to do that. I was more talking about how dorky Putin looks and his male insecurity but it came out all wrong. I'll remove part of the message. I'm sorry.
Heck, I like effeminate guys. Gender roles are stupid.
-
That's illogical and you know it. Their actions are extremely similar to the Nazis, and therefore can be compared to the Nazis. Unless you completely failed all of school, you know that two things don't need to be identical to be compared. You know I wasn't being literal, and you complained in the first place that even comparing them to the Nazis would be wrong, which it isn't. The are highly similar to the Nazis, and their ideology is the same as the Nazis was at the start, just with "Germans" replaced with "Jews" and "Jews" replaced with "Palestinians". If a southern politician called for slavery, you wouldn't object to them being called a Confederate asshole. But, they're not literally a member of the Confederate States of America.
I already explained this earlier, but since it didn't sink in the first time...
What you call "early stage Nazis" is nothing more than generic persecution. The Nazis were neither the first nor the most prolific practitioners of this sort of thing. They're no more "early stage Nazis" than they are "Romans" or "Mongolians" or "Chinese", or pretty much every single group in history that ever at some point had power over another. If they were doing things that Nazi-run Germany specifically did to eliminate those they don't like (the usual death camps, forced experimentation, all that good stuff), then it would be a valid comparison. If not, however, it serves no purpose other than an extremely tired and overused appeal to emotion.
You have got to admit that they've got the ghetto and disproportionate retribution on the civilian population thing down to a T.
Pretty big on aggressive expansion under the guise "reclaiming" of the homeland, have a very militaristic society, and are really into that racial purity nonsense as well.
-
That's illogical and you know it. Their actions are extremely similar to the Nazis, and therefore can be compared to the Nazis. Unless you completely failed all of school, you know that two things don't need to be identical to be compared. You know I wasn't being literal, and you complained in the first place that even comparing them to the Nazis would be wrong, which it isn't. The are highly similar to the Nazis, and their ideology is the same as the Nazis was at the start, just with "Germans" replaced with "Jews" and "Jews" replaced with "Palestinians". If a southern politician called for slavery, you wouldn't object to them being called a Confederate asshole. But, they're not literally a member of the Confederate States of America.
I already explained this earlier, but since it didn't sink in the first time...
What you call "early stage Nazis" is nothing more than generic persecution. The Nazis were neither the first nor the most prolific practitioners of this sort of thing. They're no more "early stage Nazis" than they are "Romans" or "Mongolians" or "Chinese", or pretty much every single group in history that ever at some point had power over another. If they were doing things that Nazi-run Germany specifically did to eliminate those they don't like (the usual death camps, forced experimentation, all that good stuff), then it would be a valid comparison. If not, however, it serves no purpose other than an extremely tired and overused appeal to emotion.
You have got to admit that they've got the ghetto and disproportionate retribution on the civilian population thing down to a T.
Pretty big on aggressive expansion under the guise "reclaiming" of the homeland, have a very militaristic society, and are really into that racial purity nonsense as well.
Might as well give it up. They could start wearing swastikas and goose-stepping and people would call Godwin's law if you called them Nazis. Godwin's law is fucking retarded.
-
As with many other things, it started out as a good idea, but now I too often see it as an excuse. No Russia is not literally becoming a supporter of the German National Socialist Party, but it is certainly becoming similar in its acts and methods.
-
As with many other things, it started out as a good idea, but now I too often see it as an excuse. No Russia is not literally becoming a supporter of the German National Socialist Party, but it is certainly becoming similar in its acts and methods.
Exactly. Godwin's Law was never intended to be used for every Nazi comparison. It was intended to be used when someone got into an argument online and called their opponent a Nazi, not when a nation is acting like Nazis.
-
For me I like to make things distinct, otherwise you water down the impact of the original thing you are comparing something to. Which, has honestly already happened by calling things Hitler and the Holocaust.
-
If I may be so bold as to inject an admittedly amateur historian's perspective, while I agree that it's important to not make light of the terrors of the past, it's also important to learn from them. While Russia isn't as bad as Nazi Germany, it's not like they started exterminating Jews, Roma, Gays, etc. immediately. They built up to it with propaganda and censorship, continually demonizing the "enemy" until there was little objection. With such a power-hungry leader as Putin, I would not be at all surprised to see a similar process in Russia today. As the old cliché goes, "those who do not learn for history are doomed to repeat it". We cannot simply look on history as vague myths and static events, but as an actual part of our world, and a source of valuable learning and lessons. This looks all to like late 30s Germany, with a formerly powerful nation seeking to regain its lost glory, a charismatic leader with dreams of grandeur, and an eagerness to hate anyone who threatens the "glorious nation". And that's why I have no problem comparing Putin and his supporters to Nazis, because it is important to recognize these thing Before they start killing.
-
If I may be so bold as to inject an admittedly amateur historian's perspective, while I agree that it's important to not make light of the terrors of the past, it's also important to learn from them. While Russia isn't as bad as Nazi Germany, it's not like they started exterminating Jews, Roma, Gays, etc. immediately. They built up to it with propaganda and censorship, continually demonizing the "enemy" until there was little objection. With such a power-hungry leader as Putin, I would not be at all surprised to see a similar process in Russia today. As the old cliché goes, "those who do not learn for history are doomed to repeat it". We cannot simply look on history as vague myths and static events, but as an actual part of our world, and a source of valuable learning and lessons. This looks all to like late 30s Germany, with a formerly powerful nation seeking to regain its lost glory, a charismatic leader with dreams of grandeur, and an eagerness to hate anyone who threatens the "glorious nation". And that's why I have no problem comparing Putin and his supporters to Nazis, because it is important to recognize these thing Before they start killing.
finally someone making sense in this discussion. by the way, as a historian, you're spot on, even if i'd say it's more twenty's germany than full-fledged thirties at this point. the bolded part is an adage, not a cliché, and i really wish more politicians kept it to heart in these times.
another adage (translated from french) is "victims make the best executionners" (les victimes sont les meilleurs bourreaux) which is why i'm wary of israel, since their methods are pretty vile, and you can see where they got the inspiration.
i'd support an eye-opening campaign going something like this: world situation A, parallel to historic situation A, world situation B, parallel to situation B, caption: "those who do not learn for history are doomed to repeat it. knowledge is power. use it well"
-
If I may be so bold as to inject an admittedly amateur historian's perspective, while I agree that it's important to not make light of the terrors of the past, it's also important to learn from them. While Russia isn't as bad as Nazi Germany, it's not like they started exterminating Jews, Roma, Gays, etc. immediately. They built up to it with propaganda and censorship, continually demonizing the "enemy" until there was little objection. With such a power-hungry leader as Putin, I would not be at all surprised to see a similar process in Russia today. As the old cliché goes, "those who do not learn for history are doomed to repeat it". We cannot simply look on history as vague myths and static events, but as an actual part of our world, and a source of valuable learning and lessons. This looks all to like late 30s Germany, with a formerly powerful nation seeking to regain its lost glory, a charismatic leader with dreams of grandeur, and an eagerness to hate anyone who threatens the "glorious nation". And that's why I have no problem comparing Putin and his supporters to Nazis, because it is important to recognize these thing Before they start killing.
That's what I was trying to say. They're not acting like Germany at the end, but the early part of Nazi Germany.
-
If I may be so bold as to inject an admittedly amateur historian's perspective, while I agree that it's important to not make light of the terrors of the past, it's also important to learn from them. While Russia isn't as bad as Nazi Germany, it's not like they started exterminating Jews, Roma, Gays, etc. immediately. They built up to it with propaganda and censorship, continually demonizing the "enemy" until there was little objection. With such a power-hungry leader as Putin, I would not be at all surprised to see a similar process in Russia today. As the old cliché goes, "those who do not learn for history are doomed to repeat it". We cannot simply look on history as vague myths and static events, but as an actual part of our world, and a source of valuable learning and lessons. This looks all to like late 30s Germany, with a formerly powerful nation seeking to regain its lost glory, a charismatic leader with dreams of grandeur, and an eagerness to hate anyone who threatens the "glorious nation". And that's why I have no problem comparing Putin and his supporters to Nazis, because it is important to recognize these thing Before they start killing.
finally someone making sense in this discussion. by the way, as a historian, you're spot on, even if i'd say it's more twenty's germany than full-fledged thirties at this point. the bolded part is an adage, not a cliché, and i really wish more politicians kept it to heart in these times.
another adage (translated from french) is "victims make the best executionners" (les victimes sont les meilleurs bourreaux) which is why i'm wary of israel, since their methods are pretty vile, and you can see where they got the inspiration.
i'd support an eye-opening campaign going something like this: world situation A, parallel to historic situation A, world situation B, parallel to situation B, caption: "those who do not learn for history are doomed to repeat it. knowledge is power. use it well"
I like your new saying. A good companion to the one I wrote (which PosthumanHeresy has as a signature). I think a new Book of Proverbs is in order. I have another saying. Instead of saying "No good deed goes unpunished" (which sounds super-cynical & seems to discourage being a 'good Samaritan/random acts of kindness', thereby making humanity worse), one should say, "Good deeds are noble but be careful who you do good deeds for, lest it comes back to haunt you".
-
If I may be so bold as to inject an admittedly amateur historian's perspective, while I agree that it's important to not make light of the terrors of the past, it's also important to learn from them. While Russia isn't as bad as Nazi Germany, it's not like they started exterminating Jews, Roma, Gays, etc. immediately. They built up to it with propaganda and censorship, continually demonizing the "enemy" until there was little objection. With such a power-hungry leader as Putin, I would not be at all surprised to see a similar process in Russia today. As the old cliché goes, "those who do not learn for history are doomed to repeat it". We cannot simply look on history as vague myths and static events, but as an actual part of our world, and a source of valuable learning and lessons. This looks all to like late 30s Germany, with a formerly powerful nation seeking to regain its lost glory, a charismatic leader with dreams of grandeur, and an eagerness to hate anyone who threatens the "glorious nation". And that's why I have no problem comparing Putin and his supporters to Nazis, because it is important to recognize these thing Before they start killing.
finally someone making sense in this discussion. by the way, as a historian, you're spot on, even if i'd say it's more twenty's germany than full-fledged thirties at this point. the bolded part is an adage, not a cliché, and i really wish more politicians kept it to heart in these times.
another adage (translated from french) is "victims make the best executionners" (les victimes sont les meilleurs bourreaux) which is why i'm wary of israel, since their methods are pretty vile, and you can see where they got the inspiration.
i'd support an eye-opening campaign going something like this: world situation A, parallel to historic situation A, world situation B, parallel to situation B, caption: "those who do not learn for history are doomed to repeat it. knowledge is power. use it well"
I like your new saying. A good companion to the one I wrote (which PosthumanHeresy has as a signature). I think a new Book of Proverbs is in order. I have another saying. Instead of saying "No good deed goes unpunished" (which sounds super-cynical & seems to discourage being a 'good Samaritan/random acts of kindness', thereby making humanity worse), one should say, "Good deeds are noble but be careful who you do good deeds for, lest it comes back to haunt you".
"Bite the hand that feeds you if its feeding you poison."
-
If I may be so bold as to inject an admittedly amateur historian's perspective, while I agree that it's important to not make light of the terrors of the past, it's also important to learn from them. While Russia isn't as bad as Nazi Germany, it's not like they started exterminating Jews, Roma, Gays, etc. immediately. They built up to it with propaganda and censorship, continually demonizing the "enemy" until there was little objection. With such a power-hungry leader as Putin, I would not be at all surprised to see a similar process in Russia today. As the old cliché goes, "those who do not learn for history are doomed to repeat it". We cannot simply look on history as vague myths and static events, but as an actual part of our world, and a source of valuable learning and lessons. This looks all to like late 30s Germany, with a formerly powerful nation seeking to regain its lost glory, a charismatic leader with dreams of grandeur, and an eagerness to hate anyone who threatens the "glorious nation". And that's why I have no problem comparing Putin and his supporters to Nazis, because it is important to recognize these thing Before they start killing.
finally someone making sense in this discussion. by the way, as a historian, you're spot on, even if i'd say it's more twenty's germany than full-fledged thirties at this point. the bolded part is an adage, not a cliché, and i really wish more politicians kept it to heart in these times.
another adage (translated from french) is "victims make the best executionners" (les victimes sont les meilleurs bourreaux) which is why i'm wary of israel, since their methods are pretty vile, and you can see where they got the inspiration.
i'd support an eye-opening campaign going something like this: world situation A, parallel to historic situation A, world situation B, parallel to situation B, caption: "those who do not learn for history are doomed to repeat it. knowledge is power. use it well"
I like your new saying. A good companion to the one I wrote (which PosthumanHeresy has as a signature). I think a new Book of Proverbs is in order. I have another saying. Instead of saying "No good deed goes unpunished" (which sounds super-cynical & seems to discourage being a 'good Samaritan/random acts of kindness', thereby making humanity worse), one should say, "Good deeds are noble but be careful who you do good deeds for, lest it comes back to haunt you".
"Bite the hand that feeds you if its feeding you poison."
Hey, great one! This is fun! I think we should create a new thread where we all come up with new moral saying/proverb thingies! After a while, they'll all be compiled in one book or website or something.
-
Sounds awesome to me.
-
You guys just described fascism. And fascism doesn't necessarily turn genocidal. I see your point, but Art's point is also valid: Godwinning here is a needless emotional appeal, there are better analogies.
Also, Godwin's Law doesn't say that you can't compare to the Nazis, it just says that it's the most likely comparison. You can extrapolate from that that it's probably usually hyperbolic.
-
You guys just described fascism. And fascism doesn't necessarily turn genocidal. I see your point, but Art's point is also valid: Godwinning here is a needless emotional appeal, there are better analogies.
Also, Godwin's Law doesn't say that you can't compare to the Nazis, it just says that it's the most likely comparison. You can extrapolate from that that it's probably usually hyperbolic.
That is true, but I would like to point out, the two biggest fascist nations that weren't Germany, which were Russia and China, killed far more people than Germany, each. China killed around 30 million in a few years. A while back, I did the math, and it was multiple 9/11s, daily, for years. Soviet Russia is infamous for the death toll. Fascism coupled with homophobia and other discriminatory mindsets leads to genocide.
-
Could this be a new Godwin?
"You oppose SSM? You know who else opposes SSM? Russia. Communists!"
-
Could this be a new Godwin?
"You oppose SSM? You know who else opposes SSM? Russia. Communists!"
Only if the person is a strange hybrid of liberal and conservative. Russia is not and pretty much never was communist, outside of a warped, twisted version of communism that was most certainly not Marx's idea.
-
Putin used to head the KGB back in the Soviet era, so I will go ahead and lump him for Soviet sins, too. No clean slate possible. His personal history most assuredly molded him as a man and the harsh leader he is today. As to the Russian people, polls show that they are not all that fond of Putin en masse. But neither were most Germans prior to WWII; AH took over via a semi bloodless coup.
The homophobia thing has always been strong in Russian culture, just as here in America. Macho posturing bullshit, like in so many cultures, plus the rapid resurgence of the Russian Orthodox Church both in society and very much so in political influence there, just as we have the same trend amongst conservative fundies and teahadi GOP pols. The difference between the West and the former USSR was a matter of Russians lacking any duration time prior to this conservative resurgence to progress in thinking about LGBT issues. We had that growing and learning period starting from the sixties onward. During the same time period, USSR citizens were just trudging along in poverty, spending more than half their off work waking hours in queues at woefully under-stocked stores in the big cities, or walking many miles home from the giant state run farms...because nobody had a fucking car back then. Things still sucked after Soviet communism for many years (and still do) for most Russians. So, at least with middle aged and older Russians, their knowledge and attitudes about LGBT's for the most part are stuck in the '50's, because culturally, they Never had a hippie era, a Civil Rights Movement era, a time when people actually could and did protest the government. They didn't go through all the mind set change that we did. They were too poor, and the government was too nasty for any of that to happen.
-
Putin used to head the KGB back in the Soviet era, so I will go ahead and lump him for Soviet sins, too. No clean slate possible. His personal history most assuredly molded him as a man and the harsh leader he is today. As to the Russian people, polls show that they are not all that fond of Putin en masse. But neither were most Germans prior to WWII; AH took over via a semi bloodless coup.
The homophobia thing has always been strong in Russian culture, just as here in America. Macho posturing bullshit, like in so many cultures, plus the rapid resurgence of the Russian Orthodox Church both in society and very much so in political influence there, just as we have the same trend amongst conservative fundies and teahadi GOP pols. The difference between the West and the former USSR was a matter of Russians lacking any duration time prior to this conservative resurgence to progress in thinking about LGBT issues. We had that growing and learning period starting from the sixties onward. During the same time period, USSR citizens were just trudging along in poverty, spending more than half their off work waking hours in queues at woefully under-stocked stores in the big cities, or walking many miles home from the giant state run farms...because nobody had a fucking car back then. Things still sucked after Soviet communism for many years (and still do) for most Russians. So, at least with middle aged and older Russians, their knowledge and attitudes about LGBT's for the most part are stuck in the '50's, because culturally, they Never had a hippie era, a Civil Rights Movement era, a time when people actually could and did protest the government. They didn't go through all the mind set change that we did. They were too poor, and the government was too nasty for any of that to happen.
I completely and totally agree. My major point was over calling them communist. They were fascists. Pure and simple. Sure, they used communism to rally the people, and at first, legitimately meant it, but definitely not Cold War era Russia.
-
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/story/2013/09/08/montreal-kiss-in-gay-lgbt-russia-rally.html (http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/story/2013/09/08/montreal-kiss-in-gay-lgbt-russia-rally.html)
Visit your local Russian consulate, folks!
People around the world shared smooches on Sunday to protest against Russia’s recent crackdown on its LGBT community.
The global kiss-In, dubbed “To Russia With Love,” drew same-sex couples to the front steps of Montreal’s Russian consulate over the weekend.
Rallies were staged at 3 p.m. in major cities across the globe including Vancouver, New York City, Washington D.C., Paris, Athens, Barcelona and Helsinki.
-
We prefer to call it hecksinki.
-
You know, the problem with Godwin's law is that it's abused to shut down any comparisons. I'm sorry, but are you saying that a powerful government blaming specific groups of people for all their issues, stealing all their land, wiping them out and making them second class citizens isn't Naziesque?
Unless they're actually rounding them up and placing them in death camps in an attempt to methodically wipe them all out, then it's still a hyperbole.
What if they're bulldozing their houses, stripping them of all their rights and bombing their cities? Is it hyperbole still? Because if not, we still have goddamn Nazi Jews.
There are such things as pro-Nazi jews (shockingly).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lehi_(group)
Not this argument again...
-
I think this probably reflects the crazy 90s of Russia. The permissive social norms of that era, along with the chaotic governance has become associated with an partly blamed for the economic and social crash of that era (mass suicide, drug use and so on). Yeltsin! Putin doesn't drink, and he doesn't like gays, for the same reason: he's positioning himself as the tough Russian conservative who will do what must be done to protect Russian society from these dual threats.
-
Putins been in power for a long time. Why are all of these anti gay laws going into effect now?
-
Sex between two people of the same gender was illegal untill 1993 and homosexuality was considered a mental illnes untill 1999 and they made other such progresses untill this latest wave of anti-gay ideology. It could be that as they followed the international trend of being more tolerant to sexual minorities the resistance also grew stronger as a response.
But what I find odd is that they allowed gay people to donate blood in 2008 even though that's quite rare among countries. I think that's one thing they will change back soon since at least one Russian politician has been campaigning against blood and organ donations by gay people. (I think he specifically said that those organs should be burnt or simply thrown in a ditch.)
-
Basically fundamentalism rose especially over the rise in Chechan nationalism
So while being gay was legal in 93 its haraam now because the orthodox church has more power
-
So sad to see a country socially progress & become more moderate only to go backwards again.
Nothing gets my goat more than that! The Tealiban have been trying to do that here in Lady Liberty's turf. What's wrong with these people?!
If the IslamoFundies amongst the Chechen are behind this, then perhaps they should just be granted the independence they so desperately want!
And people should ditch the Russian Orthodox churches!
Hopefully, many of the idiots responsible for this backwards trend are dried-up old people. They'll croak, soon.
I hope there's a sizeable chunk of pro-LGBT/Progressive Russians working hard to put the kibosh on this!
(Had to reedit this. I said some real doozies concerning the 90's. It was better in regards to personal rights but godawful in regards to economy & standard of living. For all his machismo posturing, autocratic ways & bigotry, at least he did straighten out things, economy-wise. Now if Putin wasn't a bigot, he would been less of someone I wanted to punch. I mean, he looks like Dobby crossed with Frank Gorshin for crying out loud...with no chin!)
-
The Chechen's have no power trust me they have no hand in this
-
Islamo-fundies in Chechnya? Most of the Islamo-fundies were imported from Saudi Arabia, etc. And yes, they had nothing to do with this.
Fun fact: The Soviet regime legalised same sex marriage in 1918/19, Stalin re-criminalised it in the late 20s/early 30s.
-
Wowzies! The Ruskies have been flip-floppy with the LGBT right-skies! :P
-
In recent news ... (http://worldnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/10/31/21266851-israeli-attack-destroys-russian-missiles-headed-from-syria-to-hezbollah-us-officials-say)
-
A couple of months ago the IDF blew up some Tunguskas, calling them aggressive weapons. Sick, Israel.