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Community => Politics and Government => Topic started by: Vanto on February 05, 2020, 10:54:28 am

Title: Democratic Primaries Thread
Post by: Vanto on February 05, 2020, 10:54:28 am
I'm honestly surprised we don't have one already.
Title: Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
Post by: Id82 on February 05, 2020, 05:11:06 pm
Well so far it's a shit show.
Title: Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
Post by: dpareja on February 05, 2020, 10:20:29 pm
Pretty much.
Title: Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
Post by: The_Queen on February 13, 2020, 04:04:21 pm
I am waiting on two things:

1. Bernie supporters to cry every time he loses a primary or caucus and make elaborate conspiracy theories, and
2. Bernie to win the presidency, as I called November 9, 2016
Title: Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
Post by: davedan on February 13, 2020, 04:24:40 pm
Who is going to be his VP?
Title: Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
Post by: niam2023 on February 13, 2020, 06:07:39 pm
My family firmly supports Buttigieg it seems.

They cite his age as a factor in his favor, and say that Sanders is simply too old for them.
Title: Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
Post by: Id82 on February 13, 2020, 07:55:46 pm
Then I advise that they watch this video. 

https://youtu.be/DMmoB2WMMlo
Title: Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
Post by: niam2023 on February 13, 2020, 09:01:10 pm
They are not interested in watching a 30 minute plus video.

My mother went as far as saying she never has liked Bernie, she never will like him, and he "talks like Trump" as far as she's concerned, and she despises Trump. Much as my family is left wing otherwise, it does seem they're very much it seems turned off by ideas of revolution or radical overhaul.

Plus, again, the age thing.
Title: Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
Post by: dpareja on February 13, 2020, 09:37:32 pm
I am waiting on two things:

1. Bernie supporters to cry every time he loses a primary or caucus and make elaborate conspiracy theories, and
2. Bernie to win the presidency, as I called November 9, 2016

The first is certainly true, and I suspect a lot of it will involve pointing to 538 and saying, "They hate Bernie and they predicted he'd win such-and-such contest so how could he lose!!!1!!!1!! RIGGED!!!!!!!!!!!!11!"

The second I'm very unsure about.
Title: Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
Post by: Askold on February 15, 2020, 01:27:26 am
I am amused that the talking heads on a Finnish news show immediately started fanboying "Mayor Pete" when discussing the elections in USA.

I am not so amused that apparently that Bloomberg fellow is buying the Democratic nomination for himself (for example, he has bought so many ads that the prices have gone up, making it harder for others to try to regain the gap.) as I don't know if he's going to lose intentionally to Trump in order to watch USA burn or if he's just going to take the presidency so that Sanders won't get it.
Title: Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
Post by: Id82 on February 15, 2020, 08:41:46 am
His stop and frisk bullshit is really going to hurt him with black voters. Especially his inability to come up with a defense for why he did it in the first place other than he was a different person five years ago than he is now.
Title: Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
Post by: Vanto on February 15, 2020, 01:06:45 pm
Not to mention his comments about redlining.
Title: Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
Post by: dpareja on February 23, 2020, 01:55:51 am
...so, speculation on South Carolina?
Title: Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
Post by: Id82 on February 23, 2020, 09:49:22 am
Biden has a good chance but a narrow one in SC. Bernie might have the forward momentum to take it from him hopefully. But after seeing Bernies performance in Nevada with Hispanic voters if he can win Texas and California on Super Tuesday I think it's pretty much a done deal for him and I think a lot of people are going to drop out after that.
Title: Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
Post by: niam2023 on February 23, 2020, 12:57:37 pm
I'd have less issue with Bernie if he wasn't as old as my grandmother.
Title: Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
Post by: Id82 on February 23, 2020, 07:15:45 pm
Unfortunately all of the candidates are as old as your grandmother besides Buttigieg.
Title: Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
Post by: dpareja on February 23, 2020, 09:15:29 pm
Unfortunately all of the candidates are as old as your grandmother besides Buttigieg.

Sen. Klobuchar's only 59, just saying.
Title: Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
Post by: niam2023 on February 23, 2020, 09:31:53 pm
If this does end up being Sanders' time, I just hope he chooses a young and vibrant VP candidate.
Title: Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
Post by: dpareja on February 23, 2020, 10:36:33 pm
If this does end up being Sanders' time, I just hope he chooses a young and vibrant VP candidate.

I'm betting Nina Turner (who's only 52) ends up either as VP or DNC Chair. Probably the latter given her relative lack of experience in elective office, though.
Title: Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
Post by: Vanto on February 23, 2020, 11:10:28 pm
If this does end up being Sanders' time, I just hope he chooses a young and vibrant VP candidate.

Though they'll need substance, too. Palin was certainly young and vibrant, but she didn't do McCain any favors.
Title: Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
Post by: davedan on February 23, 2020, 11:16:31 pm
Does the VP need to be old enough to be president?
Title: Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
Post by: dpareja on February 23, 2020, 11:32:07 pm
Does the VP need to be old enough to be president?

The VP has to meet all the requirements the President does, so yes.
Title: Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
Post by: davedan on February 23, 2020, 11:57:08 pm
So AOC and Ilhan Omar are out then
Title: Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
Post by: dpareja on February 24, 2020, 01:49:02 am
So AOC and Ilhan Omar are out then

Rep. Ocasio-Cortez for now, yes, Rep. Omar yes barring a constitutional amendment.
Title: Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
Post by: Id82 on February 24, 2020, 03:28:21 am
I think Bernie needs to go more centrist with his VP pick to try and bring that side of the party with him.  Picking someone like Klobuchar might ease some anxiety and help out in the rust belt.
Title: Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
Post by: niam2023 on February 24, 2020, 03:31:58 am
Though this does bring to mind an idea I had; decreasing the age requirement for running for President to 25.
Title: Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
Post by: dpareja on February 24, 2020, 10:26:29 am
I think Bernie needs to go more centrist with his VP pick to try and bring that side of the party with him.  Picking someone like Klobuchar might ease some anxiety and help out in the rust belt.

Then he turns off part of his base, because it means "if I leave office the next person won't advance my policy priorities".

As for the Rust Belt, the biggest issue there is trade (and specifically being more protectionist), and Sanders already has that position.
Title: Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
Post by: DarkPhoenix on February 24, 2020, 09:35:29 pm
If this does end up being Sanders' time, I just hope he chooses a young and vibrant VP candidate.

I'm betting Nina Turner (who's only 52) ends up either as VP or DNC Chair.

Ugh.
Title: Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
Post by: dpareja on February 24, 2020, 10:42:00 pm
If this does end up being Sanders' time, I just hope he chooses a young and vibrant VP candidate.

I'm betting Nina Turner (who's only 52) ends up either as VP or DNC Chair.

Ugh.

She's going to get something important, she's been one of his most high-profile surrogates and most ardent defenders.

EDIT: https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/joe-biden-election-south-carolina-super-tuesday-1.5474594

A former Conservative strategist on Biden's campaign and rallies:

Quote
It's like a hostage-taking. ... If that campaign was milk, you'd look at the date and throw it out.

EDIT: Super Tuesday just got a lot more interesting with these South Carolina results.
Title: Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
Post by: Id82 on March 01, 2020, 10:08:02 pm
Basically Biden will win the south but I think Bernie will win everything else.
Title: Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
Post by: dpareja on March 01, 2020, 11:44:35 pm
Basically Biden will win the south but I think Bernie will win everything else.

Well the flip side of this is that apparently Biden staked everything on South Carolina and has no organization in any Super Tuesday state.
Title: Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
Post by: DarkPhoenix on March 02, 2020, 01:15:02 am
Quite frankly, with Bernie supporting shit like this, do you REALLY want him to win?

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/02/29/us/politics/bernie-sanders-chapo-trap-house.html
Title: Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
Post by: niam2023 on March 02, 2020, 01:19:36 am
"bloodless asexual"?

likening Warren to a snake?

I just cannot stand these people. They go "OH ITS COMMON FOLK TALKING, WHY ARE YOU SO MAD ABOUT IT???" Its not magically okay because you're not swimming in gold.
Title: Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
Post by: davedan on March 02, 2020, 01:48:11 am
Quite frankly, with Bernie supporting shit like this, do you REALLY want him to win?

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/02/29/us/politics/bernie-sanders-chapo-trap-house.html

I think anyone but Trump or Bloomberg.
Title: Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
Post by: Cloud3514 on March 02, 2020, 02:38:56 am
Sanders easily has the worst supporters. They treat him like the second coming and will minimize or spin any mistakes he makes so damn hard. Sanders is polling like shit among Hispanic voters in Florida, as badly as Trump, in fact. But Bernie Bros are still trying to spin his praise for Castro as a good thing, despite the fact that nominating Sanders will almost certainly hand Florida to the Republicans. Ever notice just white Bernie Bros tend to be? Not a coincidence.

That's not even getting into the constant conspiracy theories.

And then there's the hypocrisy. At this point in the 2016 race, Sanders had decisively lost. But yet he refused to drop out or support Clinton, planning to try to snipe superdelegates at the DNC. I lost count of how many "Bernie can still win!" headlines I saw being passed around among his supporters. And this year? They're already declaring that Warren can't win and that she's only still in the race to hurt Sanders (Bernie Bros? Spouting conspiracy theories? Shocker) and that her supporters need to rally behind Sanders. Which is literally what they whined about Clinton supporters saying in 2016.

But then you have how they treat the other candidates. I've got a friend who regularly tweets "X candidate is a Republican." Even Warren, which is absolutely absurd. Bloomberg and Gabbard aside, the idea that any Democratic candidate is a Republican is just shit stirring nonsense. Sanders has a cult. Yeah, it's better than Trump's cult in that they (or at least most of them) aren't actively wishing harm on other people, but they're not supporting Sanders for his policies or ideas, they're supporting Sanders because he's Bernie Sanders.

In other news: Buttigieg is out. I'm surprised he didn't hold on until Super Tuesday.
Title: Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
Post by: niam2023 on March 02, 2020, 02:50:46 am
It would not surprise me at all if, after Sanders dies, his followers immediately point to that one Nevada case and go "LET'S TRY AND ELECT A CORPSE!!"
Title: Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
Post by: dpareja on March 02, 2020, 03:25:45 am
It would not surprise me at all if, after Sanders dies, his followers immediately point to that one Nevada case and go "LET'S TRY AND ELECT A CORPSE!!"

Happened in Missouri, too.
Title: Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
Post by: davedan on March 02, 2020, 06:09:34 pm
Sanders easily has the worst supporters. They treat him like the second coming and will minimize or spin any mistakes he makes so damn hard. Sanders is polling like shit among Hispanic voters in Florida, as badly as Trump, in fact. But Bernie Bros are still trying to spin his praise for Castro as a good thing, despite the fact that nominating Sanders will almost certainly hand Florida to the Republicans. Ever notice just white Bernie Bros tend to be? Not a coincidence.

That's not even getting into the constant conspiracy theories.

And then there's the hypocrisy. At this point in the 2016 race, Sanders had decisively lost. But yet he refused to drop out or support Clinton, planning to try to snipe superdelegates at the DNC. I lost count of how many "Bernie can still win!" headlines I saw being passed around among his supporters. And this year? They're already declaring that Warren can't win and that she's only still in the race to hurt Sanders (Bernie Bros? Spouting conspiracy theories? Shocker) and that her supporters need to rally behind Sanders. Which is literally what they whined about Clinton supporters saying in 2016.

But then you have how they treat the other candidates. I've got a friend who regularly tweets "X candidate is a Republican." Even Warren, which is absolutely absurd. Bloomberg and Gabbard aside, the idea that any Democratic candidate is a Republican is just shit stirring nonsense. Sanders has a cult. Yeah, it's better than Trump's cult in that they (or at least most of them) aren't actively wishing harm on other people, but they're not supporting Sanders for his policies or ideas, they're supporting Sanders because he's Bernie Sanders.

In other news: Buttigieg is out. I'm surprised he didn't hold on until Super Tuesday.

I don't know Ilhan Omar and AOC both endorsed Bernie and they're both pretty fantastic.
Title: Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
Post by: niam2023 on March 03, 2020, 12:10:23 am
They're two people, and there are vastly more people supporting him than them.
Title: Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
Post by: Cloud3514 on March 03, 2020, 12:50:28 am
I don't even hate Sanders myself. In fact, I'm getting closer and closer to believing that Warren should drop out and endorse him since Biden's clearly got an establishment Democrat coalition going on. But he's still a worse option than Warren.
Title: Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
Post by: davedan on March 03, 2020, 01:09:57 am
They're two people, and there are vastly more people supporting him than them.

That sounds like he might have a pretty good chance of winning the primary and then the general election then.

I would like to see Warren win although I think Trump probably goes better against her in the general than either Biden or Sanders. Would love to see either one offer Warren the position of VP
Title: Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
Post by: Id82 on March 03, 2020, 09:06:12 am
If Biden wins the nomination Trump is going to be re elected.
I don't see young voters getting excited about status quo politics that we've had shoved down our throats for the past nearly forty years. He doesn't really bring anything new to the table. He's prone to gaffes and saying things that are just absurd and Trump already has dirt on him that we're going to hear ad nauseam until election day. The rust belt isn't going to vote for Biden because they didn't vote for Hillary.
Title: Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
Post by: DarkPhoenix on March 03, 2020, 01:18:36 pm
If Biden wins the nomination Trump is going to be re elected.
I don't see young voters getting excited about status quo politics that we've had shoved down our throats for the past nearly forty years. He doesn't really bring anything new to the table. He's prone to gaffes and saying things that are just absurd and Trump already has dirt on him that we're going to hear ad nauseam until election day. The rust belt isn't going to vote for Biden because they didn't vote for Hillary.

I think if any of the old white men end up being nominated Trump probably wins again.  Because they all have major flaws to exploit, but the media wants 1) a horse race and 2) can't visualize any other group being President.

And honestly, if Bernie wins, I suspect you'll see his coalition turn on him within two years, because he's pushed them to reject compromise.  So they'll be angry when the midterms come and they don't have all the stuff Bernie promises... Just like Obama.

Biden, on the other hand, probably wastes the first two years making all the same mistakes Obama made; trying to convince the Repubs to work with him, and ignoring all of the insults they throw his way.

Boasting about the most diverse coalition in Dem history; how did it once again come down to two 75-80 year old white men?
Title: Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
Post by: niam2023 on March 03, 2020, 02:51:35 pm
Because somehow we've come to venerate experience above all else, even at the expense of making governance a gerontocracy.
Title: Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
Post by: ironbite on March 03, 2020, 03:36:17 pm
Did my civic duty.

Ironbite-let the chips fall where they may.
Title: Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
Post by: Id82 on March 03, 2020, 04:11:02 pm
I think what were seeing is the last throes of boomer power in the united states. They seem to desperately be clinging onto that power and refusing to pass it off to the younger generations. As the silent generation and boomers start to die off I think you're going to start seeing a political shift take place.
Title: Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
Post by: davedan on March 03, 2020, 04:33:15 pm
It's a pretty weird law making the age for president older than the age for voting. I also find it weird that people are expected to function well after 70. I know a lot of people who start to slide cognitively very soon after 70. Smart people too. People who would have been amazing leaders at 50-60 are doddering at 70. Now that's not everyone but many people.

Edit: Id82 be interesting to see what happens with the Coronavirus given that it appears to be much more lethal for older demographics. Welcome to the boomerpocalypse
Title: Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
Post by: niam2023 on March 03, 2020, 08:25:46 pm
I mean, what happens if Trump dies to the Coronavirus?

We'd be hearing baffling conspiracy theories for ages...
Title: Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
Post by: Id82 on March 03, 2020, 10:25:46 pm
You mean how the Coronavirus is a secret millenial weapon to kill all the boomers so they could turn the US into a communist hell hole?
Title: Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
Post by: Kanzenkankaku on March 03, 2020, 10:29:28 pm
If Biden wins the nomination Trump is going to be re elected.
I don't see young voters getting excited about status quo politics that we've had shoved down our throats for the past nearly forty years. He doesn't really bring anything new to the table. He's prone to gaffes and saying things that are just absurd and Trump already has dirt on him that we're going to hear ad nauseam until election day. The rust belt isn't going to vote for Biden because they didn't vote for Hillary.

I think if any of the old white men end up being nominated Trump probably wins again.  Because they all have major flaws to exploit, but the media wants 1) a horse race and 2) can't visualize any other group being President.

And honestly, if Bernie wins, I suspect you'll see his coalition turn on him within two years, because he's pushed them to reject compromise.  So they'll be angry when the midterms come and they don't have all the stuff Bernie promises... Just like Obama.

Biden, on the other hand, probably wastes the first two years making all the same mistakes Obama made; trying to convince the Repubs to work with him, and ignoring all of the insults they throw his way.

Boasting about the most diverse coalition in Dem history; how did it once again come down to two 75-80 year old white men?

Bernie Sanders isn't just some same old same old white guy. He's Jewish and his base consists of young people generally , hispanic people, young black people, and especially young women. Biden's also got older black voters pretty strongly. So I wouldn't oversimplify diversity like that.
Title: Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
Post by: dpareja on March 04, 2020, 12:07:49 am
Given current results (per The Green Papers), I predict two things:

1. Biden is the nominee.
2. Sanders supporters scream that it was rigged.
Title: Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
Post by: Cloud3514 on March 04, 2020, 12:08:00 am
Biden has the minority vote pretty secured. Which is not surprising. Sanders' base is very white. A lot Hispanic voters were alienated by his comments about Castro and a lot of black voters see him as just another old white man telling them what to believe. If Biden wins, it's because Sanders, like in 2016, can't secure the minority vote.

Won't stop the Bernie Bros from calling Warren a spoiler. Like they're already doing. I guess it's too much to ask that they just try to realize that some people just. Don't. Like. Bernie. Sanders.
Title: Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
Post by: dpareja on March 04, 2020, 12:12:00 am
Note that my comment was given current results. Quite a few districts in California have yet to report any results according to TGP.

But I do expect quite a few Sanders supporters to claim that the fix was in, even if those California districts come in and give Sanders a slight lead after tonight.
Title: Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
Post by: Cloud3514 on March 04, 2020, 12:14:36 am
I was actually typing my response before you posted. It just happened to still fit, so I left it alone.
Title: Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
Post by: dpareja on March 04, 2020, 12:19:31 am
I was actually typing my response before you posted. It just happened to still fit, so I left it alone.

And my reply was actually intended as an edit to my previous post.

Still, at this point, I think Biden has the upper hand and will probably go on to be the nominee (but it's still very early for California results, and TGP has some seriously botched Massachusetts and Maine results at the moment). But whatever else comes, this probably knocks Bloomberg out of contention, and I hope we can agree that that's a good thing.
Title: Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
Post by: DarkPhoenix on March 04, 2020, 12:55:48 am
Note that my comment was given current results. Quite a few districts in California have yet to report any results according to TGP.

But I do expect quite a few Sanders supporters to claim that the fix was in, even if those California districts come in and give Sanders a slight lead after tonight.

I've already seen a story from Teen Vogue to millenials telling them that the whole thing was fixed... By Barack Obama.

If Biden wins the nomination Trump is going to be re elected.
I don't see young voters getting excited about status quo politics that we've had shoved down our throats for the past nearly forty years. He doesn't really bring anything new to the table. He's prone to gaffes and saying things that are just absurd and Trump already has dirt on him that we're going to hear ad nauseam until election day. The rust belt isn't going to vote for Biden because they didn't vote for Hillary.

I think if any of the old white men end up being nominated Trump probably wins again.  Because they all have major flaws to exploit, but the media wants 1) a horse race and 2) can't visualize any other group being President.

And honestly, if Bernie wins, I suspect you'll see his coalition turn on him within two years, because he's pushed them to reject compromise.  So they'll be angry when the midterms come and they don't have all the stuff Bernie promises... Just like Obama.

Biden, on the other hand, probably wastes the first two years making all the same mistakes Obama made; trying to convince the Repubs to work with him, and ignoring all of the insults they throw his way.

Boasting about the most diverse coalition in Dem history; how did it once again come down to two 75-80 year old white men?

Bernie Sanders isn't just some same old same old white guy. He's Jewish and his base consists of young people generally , hispanic people, young black people, and especially young women. Biden's also got older black voters pretty strongly. So I wouldn't oversimplify diversity like that.

Seriously, though, where are they?  Bernie's getting wiped out all over the map... At this rate, California might be the only thing keeping him in this...
Title: Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
Post by: niam2023 on March 04, 2020, 12:58:26 am
Never underestimate the willingness of populists to assign to conspiracy any failure by their messiah.
Title: Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
Post by: Cloud3514 on March 04, 2020, 01:11:30 am
Sanders should not have run for President in the first place. He should have been an early endorsement for Warren or Booker and sat out. I swear the Bernie Bros are worse this time around than they were in 2016.
Title: Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
Post by: Id82 on March 04, 2020, 08:15:46 am
If there's any solace in this whole thing it's seeing Michael Bloomberg saying but I spent five hundred and sixty million dollars on this. How come no one's voting for me?
Title: Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
Post by: dpareja on March 04, 2020, 10:01:19 am
If there's any solace in this whole thing it's seeing Michael Bloomberg saying but I spent five hundred and sixty million dollars on this. How come no one's voting for me?

Well, it looks like he won American Samoa so that must have made the whole exercise worth it.
Title: Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
Post by: Id82 on March 04, 2020, 10:18:54 am
Yeah those six delegates are going to get him far.
Title: Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
Post by: dpareja on March 04, 2020, 10:32:12 am
Four, Gabbard got the other two.

Probably figured that was the easiest place to go in order to be able to say she got delegates.

Also, Axios is reporting that Bloomberg is dropping out and endorsing Biden.

https://www.axios.com/mike-bloomberg-drops-out-027d9882-3e65-4663-aec0-70025387def6.html
Title: Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
Post by: Id82 on March 04, 2020, 10:55:55 am
I'm just glad this is proof that you can't just buy the election. As much as I am wary of Biden being president at least he's only spent 16 million on his campaign.
Title: Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
Post by: Askold on March 04, 2020, 11:44:47 am
Sanders should not have run for President in the first place. He should have been an early endorsement for Warren or Booker and sat out. I swear the Bernie Bros are worse this time around than they were in 2016.

If Trump wins the election it will be because Bernie Bros and conservative-astroturfers make Democrats not come to the voting booths just because their main pick didn't win.

I expect endless complaints about how choosing the lesser evil is still evil and that not voting at all is the best option because they didn't get Bernie.
Title: Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
Post by: dpareja on March 04, 2020, 08:36:25 pm
To which I would say two things: Ruth Bader Ginsburg is old and there are a lot of federal court vacancies.

Give McConnell another two years to jam those courts full of conservative wingnuts and it won't matter if you win a sweeping majority in 2024, everything you want to do will be blocked by the judiciary.
Title: Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
Post by: Cloud3514 on March 04, 2020, 09:52:16 pm
Bernie Bros are amazingly bad at the long game. If it doesn't get done NOW, then people responsible for getting it done are always just as right wing as the worst Republicans to them. I've lost track of how many of them think Nancy Pelosi is no better than a Republican because she can't just snap her fingers to undo Trump's fascism, for example.

These are the kind of people who would rather everything burn to the ground if they can't have their 78 year old Jesus.
Title: Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
Post by: niam2023 on March 04, 2020, 10:09:06 pm
Tumblr is in absolute meltdown mode, and the "dirtbag left" is out in force.

I've submitted one leftist incel involved, and I've still not yet submitted the person who used an Invader Zim meme to advocate beating Joe Biden to death with a stick, the person who said all the Democrats are ACTUALLY FAR RIGHT WING EXCEPT 78 YEAR OLD JESUS, a person who called Biden's black voters "stupid, ingrateful blacks" who don't "get how much Bernie would make their lives better", not to mention all the "THEY RIGGED IT!" conspiracy theories.
Title: Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
Post by: dpareja on March 04, 2020, 11:55:29 pm
Glenn Beck chimed in on the Democratic primary race at CPAC.

Quote
You can tell by the people he surrounds himself with. Have you looked at that, the self-proclaimed communist, the founders and leaders of Antifa, Black Lives Matter, Occupy Wall Street--the new SS, the modern versions of the Weather Underground terrorist organisation, are all on his campaign staff! These are not grassroot groups of Democrats; they are Marxist revolutionaries who believe in nothing short of the complete overthrow of the United States and destruction of the Constitution and the free market system. And please, let us stop calling them "Bernie Bros", because they are not my brother. They are not something that is funny. They are Bernie Bolsheviks! They are Bernie Brownshirts! That's what they are. And their revolution will result in death and misery, another Holodomor or another Holocaust or whatever we call the next great socialist atrocity.
Title: Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
Post by: Cloud3514 on March 05, 2020, 01:20:31 am
God, Glenn Beck is such a tool.
Title: Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
Post by: dpareja on March 05, 2020, 01:49:28 am
God, Glenn Beck is such a tool.

Then I got this gem in response from a right-winger:

Quote
Not all Bernie Bros are radical violent communists, but all radical violent communists are Bernie Bros.
Title: Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
Post by: davedan on March 05, 2020, 04:46:30 am
Ahh the old 'Not all Muslims are terrorists but all terrorists are Muslims'. Well until they weren't (hint it was never true).

I like how he refers to the 'brownshirts' conveniently forgetting who it was chanting 'Jews will not replace us' at Charlottesville.
Title: Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
Post by: Vanto on March 05, 2020, 06:33:35 pm
You know, I think this election has demonstrated that there are currently three prominent factions in the Democratic Party, each represented by one of the last three candidates in the running: the center left (Biden), the identitarian left (Warren), and the universalist economic left (Sanders). The candidate who gets the nom will probably be the one whose supporters will be seen as determining the course the Democrats take this election cycle.
Title: Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
Post by: Id82 on March 05, 2020, 10:15:41 pm
Well Warren dropped out. Tulsi's still there. Where does she fit on the faction of the democratic party?
Title: Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
Post by: Cloud3514 on March 05, 2020, 10:23:54 pm
It's no surprise that Warren's out. Just wish I would stop seeing Bernie supporters mock Warren supporters for switching to Biden because Sanders and his base is so fucking toxic. Even if supporters didn't matter, they're actively hurting their own cause.
Title: Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
Post by: niam2023 on March 05, 2020, 10:44:16 pm
Tulsi is the "alt right idiot trying to pretend she isn't a totalitarian cheerleader."
Title: Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
Post by: dpareja on March 05, 2020, 11:20:03 pm
At an earlier time in the race, I would've said Warren dropping out would definitely help Sanders. I'm not at all certain of that now; I think it will be at best a wash for Sanders.

The one bright spot is that it means the debates are one-on-one, Sanders vs Biden, so they can really get into it with each other.

As for Gabbard, she's the best argument both for and against the US having an electoral system more conducive to a multi-party system.
Title: Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
Post by: Cloud3514 on March 06, 2020, 12:08:11 am
It's kind of amazing how a few months of baselessly calling Warren a snake, an establishment shill, corporatist, a hypocrite and harassing her supporters does nothing for your cause. Whodathunk!

You can tell a LOT about a candidate based on their supporters. And Sanders supporters make him look like a stubborn, shortsighted old man with a messiah complex. And, yeah, that's a pretty damn accurate description.
Title: Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
Post by: Askold on March 06, 2020, 10:08:34 am
If Biden gets the nomination, a portion of Sanders supporters will vote for Trump while many of the others will stay home and cry.

If Sanders gets the nomination, I doubt that many of Biden supporters would think that Trump is preferable so they'll still vote blue.
Title: Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
Post by: dpareja on March 06, 2020, 10:45:13 am
Giving in to #BernieOrElse is not conducive to sound, healthy governance.

EDIT: In fact, quite possibly the best argument against #BernieOrElse was given by the person whose legacy quite a few Sanders supporters claim to be carrying on.

http://docs.fdrlibrary.marist.edu/od2ndst.html

Quote
We know now that Government by organized money is just as dangerous as Government by organized mob.
Title: Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
Post by: Tolpuddle Martyr on March 06, 2020, 11:07:01 pm
I've stayed out of US electoral politics on this board before because my political compass points solidly to a direction that would make many Americans say "Sanders supporter." Frankly I'm not but mostly because I don't think Sanders is the best standard bearer for that kind of politics. He's a cranky old, white dude who's incredibly rigid in his thinking who can't expand his base beyond a small hard core of supporters. That might work for Trump because the other Republicans find him convenient for their agenda even if they secretly hate him, it'll never work for Sanders' base because the DNC finds him inconvenient at best. That said, as a leftist and a socialist I worry about folks who share those viewpoints not understanding the point of tactical voting or tactical speech. Voting for the least worst result isn't just sensible, it's crucial. These two paragraphs from a Guardian opinion piece (https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/mar/06/democratic-party-unite-defeat-trump) summed it up nicely.

Quote
What should Sanders do now? Luckily, his interests going forward align with those of the party – if only he can be persuaded to see it that way. So far, Sanders has failed to expand his appeal beyond the party’s left wing. His attempt to turn the primary into a referendum on “the Democratic establishment” has backfired, with many voters showing that they are more comfortable lining up behind “the establishment” than Sanders’ insurgency. If he has any chance of bouncing back, Sanders needs to quit the divisive rhetoric and begin appealing to different wings of the party. This would not only be strategically wise in the primary – it would also show the sort of flexibility required to win in November.

Even if Sanders ultimately loses the primary, the beginning of a process of reconciliation will go a long way to helping Democrats beat Trump. Biden is a flawed candidate, and one of his main problems in November will be his difficulty convincing the left wing of the party to turn out to vote for him. For prominent leftwing figures to intensify rhetoric implying that the nomination is somehow being unfairly stolen from Sanders by “the establishment” is to recklessly endanger the party’s chances in November. If such rhetoric was a viable path to a Sanders’ candidacy and perhaps to victory against Trump, it was perhaps defensible. But it is clear that it no longer is.

I'm coming at this not from the view of supporting Sanders but from understanding why supporting a centrist like Biden, who supported the Iraq war and continues to support a neoliberal economic agenda might grate if you come from the left wing but I'd be happier if my fellow lefties knew when it was time to make a tactical re evaluation of the situation. Supporting Biden is realpolitik, it's tactical, it's not as sexy as idealism but sometimes you don't have the luxury of idealism. If you have to choose between a Fascist and a neoliberal, opting out is no longer a choice. You have a moral duty to vote for, and yes, support the neoliberal. In cases like that not voting is as good as voting for the Fascist, I just really hope that left wing voices in the US can convince those left and on the fence including the 'Bernie bros' of that because if we see a repeat of 2016 it will give Trump the message that he can push the authoritarian envelope further than he has, and that is terrifying. 
Title: Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
Post by: Cloud3514 on March 06, 2020, 11:47:42 pm
My dislike of Sanders has nothing to do with his policies. I was a Warren supporter, after all. It has everything to do with his inability to compromise and his absolutely-second-only-to-Trump AWFUL supporters. I would love for his ideas to become reality, but the problem with that is not only does he ONLY have ideas, he is so damn stubborn that he has to have it EXACTLY as he says or not at all. He would rather let the world burn to the ground than make concessions to make progress towards his ideal policies. It's shortsighted and pretending that he will somehow be able to walk into the Oval Office, snap his fingers and make Medicare for All happen is naive, at best.

It's not that Medicare for All, or some other kind of universal healthcare are impossible, but they aren't going to happen in the way he wants them to. That's just not how politics work.

And I'll spare you another rant about why Bernie Bros are fuck awful.
Title: Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
Post by: niam2023 on March 07, 2020, 12:53:22 am
Populists thrive on that message.

That if only you give them power, they'll snap their fingers and all your problems will go away immediately.

This never happens.
Title: Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
Post by: Cloud3514 on March 10, 2020, 04:40:04 pm
Place your bets, folks. What will the Bernie Bros excuse be for losing today?

My money's on DNC conspiracy theories.
Title: Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
Post by: Id82 on March 10, 2020, 06:44:05 pm
How the coronavirus is a false flag used to distract voters from voting for Bernie Sanders.

Title: Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
Post by: dpareja on March 10, 2020, 09:04:18 pm
Old people are voting and young people aren't.

EDIT: As for COVID-19, I don't know if any US states are doing this, but Israel literally had special polling places (https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/elections/.premium-israel-election-polling-stations-coronavirus-patients-1.8587512) so that people quarantined due to the disease could still vote in their election.
Title: Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
Post by: Id82 on March 10, 2020, 10:31:38 pm
The US accommodate voters? Are you crazy? What of those voters might vote Democrat?
Title: Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
Post by: dpareja on March 10, 2020, 10:39:17 pm
The US accommodate voters? Are you crazy? What of those voters might vote Democrat?

One objection, meant in all seriousness, that I heard to the notion of just having a straight-up popular vote for President is that states and campaigns would just work to suppress the other side's voters, since that's easier than actually turning out your own supporters.

Coming, of course, from a Republican (or ex-Republican (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Solidarity_Party) now that Trump is in charge of that party).
Title: Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
Post by: Cloud3514 on March 10, 2020, 11:12:42 pm
So, it looks like Jill Stein has started her traditional grifting campaign by repeating Bernie Bro rhetoric to siphon votes away from Biden in the general election. Not sure what she's trying to accomplish this year since she's not running apparently.
Title: Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
Post by: dpareja on March 10, 2020, 11:28:36 pm
So, it looks like Jill Stein has started her traditional grifting campaign by repeating Bernie Bro rhetoric to siphon votes away from Biden in the general election. Not sure what she's trying to accomplish this year since she's not running apparently.

Dr. Stein's shtick at this point is "if you keep electing moderate Democrats the Republicans will get crazier and crazier and the next one of them who wins will be even more insane than Trump".
Title: Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
Post by: niam2023 on March 10, 2020, 11:31:05 pm
Stein's shtick is "give me MORE ass to kiss, Mr. Putin! I can do better than Mr. Trump!"

Title: Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
Post by: Cloud3514 on March 11, 2020, 12:13:21 am
So, it looks like Jill Stein has started her traditional grifting campaign by repeating Bernie Bro rhetoric to siphon votes away from Biden in the general election. Not sure what she's trying to accomplish this year since she's not running apparently.

Dr. Stein's shtick at this point is "if you keep electing moderate Democrats the Republicans will get crazier and crazier and the next one of them who wins will be even more insane than Trump".

Stein's shtick is "give me MORE ass to kiss, Mr. Putin! I can do better than Mr. Trump!"



So what you're saying is that she wants to be the next Republican president.
Title: Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
Post by: dpareja on March 11, 2020, 12:54:55 am
If current partial results in Idaho and Michigan hold up, Sanders should drop out.

And I say that as someone who thinks he is substantially superior to Biden as a candidate for the general election.
Title: Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
Post by: niam2023 on March 11, 2020, 12:58:19 am
Could how noxious Sanders' supporters are be playing a role in his defeat?

I mean its not exactly been kept quiet that he's been around the pit of grotesqueries that is Chapo Trap House.
Title: Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
Post by: Id82 on March 11, 2020, 06:30:57 am
It seems like Bernie's campaign fell apart after he said Castro did some good things for Cuba. It made him seem like a communist sympathizer when people already accuse him of being a communist.
Title: Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
Post by: dpareja on March 11, 2020, 10:07:01 am
It seems like Bernie's campaign fell apart after he said Castro did some good things for Cuba. It made him seem like a communist sympathizer when people already accuse him of being a communist.

Possibly, but, as he pointed out, Obama said the same thing he did (about Castro and literacy rates).

Sanders' campaign fell apart because this was their plan:

Plan A: Lock up 30% of the vote and rely on the ego of their opponents to keep them in the race after they couldn't win, thus splitting the vote and pushing most of them below the 15% threshold for delegates.

Betting on ego usually isn't a terrible bet in Presidential politics, but if that fails (as it did)...

Plan B: Get young voters energized so that their turnout will match that of older voters.

This was the sketchier plan since experience indicates that young people simply do not vote in the numbers that older people do.

If young people don't turn out in sufficient numbers (which they didn't)...

Plan C: What Plan C?
Title: Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
Post by: Id82 on March 11, 2020, 12:15:57 pm
Is it just me but does the Democratic party seem like the party of conservatism now. While the Republicans are moving closer to fascist authoritarianism? I feel like there is no liberal party in the US at this time, and anything progressive seems too far left. Like it would take a long time to get there.
Title: Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
Post by: Cloud3514 on March 11, 2020, 12:28:31 pm
I think that's a pretty heavy mischaracterization. The Democratic party is not nearly as left wing as I'd like, but it's wrong to say that it's a right wing party. Even Biden's platform is way more left wing than the memes would have you think.
Title: Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
Post by: dpareja on March 11, 2020, 09:11:22 pm
Left-wing in what context, though? As Thomas Piketty noted (https://www.cbc.ca/news/business/democrats-sanders-capitalism-1.5460890), Sanders and Warren are moderate social democrats from a European perspective, which is left-wing to be sure, but not radically so, just mildly centre-left.

From that perspective (ie the perspective of most of the world's stable, developed liberal democracies), Biden is right-wing and the Republicans are off-the-charts batshit insane.
Title: Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
Post by: Cloud3514 on March 12, 2020, 02:24:54 am
I mean, yes, by European standards, Sanders and Warren aren't radical, but that's not what I said.

If you listen to the Twitter memes, you'd think that Biden was almost or just as right wing as Trump, which, of course, is completely fucking absurd. The democrats SHOULD start moving left, I don't disagree with that, but I also think it's somewhat inevitable seeing how much support someone like Sanders has among people under the age of 40.
Title: Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
Post by: Kanzenkankaku on March 16, 2020, 03:02:29 am
Biden has the minority vote pretty secured. Which is not surprising. Sanders' base is very white. A lot Hispanic voters were alienated by his comments about Castro and a lot of black voters see him as just another old white man telling them what to believe. If Biden wins, it's because Sanders, like in 2016, can't secure the minority vote.

Won't stop the Bernie Bros from calling Warren a spoiler. Like they're already doing. I guess it's too much to ask that they just try to realize that some people just. Don't. Like. Bernie. Sanders.

You don't need to like a person to vote for the best, most beneficial policy and least harm. Politics isn't about who you'd have a beer with. This comment also assumes a lot about Hispanic people based on a loud minority of Florida-dwelling super conservative Cuban diaspora people who typically don't even vote democrat in the first place.
Title: Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
Post by: dpareja on March 17, 2020, 12:49:45 am
I really, really hope that the primary elections still, for some insane reason, being held tomorrow aren't the start of a Sanders turnaround because old people stay away from the polls due to COVID-19. That would be the most Pyrrhic victory imaginable.
Title: Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
Post by: Cloud3514 on March 18, 2020, 02:00:02 am
Nope, it actually looks like it's pretty much just setting things in stone for Biden. Sanders had his ass handed to him. I've been telling people that Sanders had zero chance in Florida and, surprise!, he had zero chance in Florida. It's almost like people there don't like when you praise Castro.

And I'm sure it's just a coincidence that parts of the Sanders camp are crying conspiracy about the primaries not being delayed.
Title: Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
Post by: dpareja on March 18, 2020, 02:04:39 am
Sanders supporters will be sitting at home on November 3 crying conspiracy theories.

Just enough of them that Biden will lose.
Title: Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
Post by: niam2023 on March 18, 2020, 03:27:57 am
There's a real attitude of entitlement there. If they can't have their Great Progressive Messiah, then fuck everything. Fuck the country, fuck the future, ME WAN MUH BERNIE!!!
Title: Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
Post by: dpareja on March 18, 2020, 03:48:56 am
Because for a lot of them, they see no future with either Trump or Biden, because neither of them will adequately (if at all) address student debt, medical debt, or climate change.

Biden represents a return to the pre-Trump status quo, which was bad enough that it ended with Donald Trump becoming President.
Title: Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
Post by: niam2023 on March 18, 2020, 04:03:06 am
Seemed pretty damn paradisical from where I was standing. Enough I understand a Biden vote purely as wanting to return to the Obama years.
Title: Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
Post by: dpareja on March 18, 2020, 10:19:08 am
Seemed pretty damn paradisical from where I was standing. Enough I understand a Biden vote purely as wanting to return to the Obama years.

Oh, I agree that the chance of Sanders getting almost any part of his agenda through Congress would have been very small.

But for some people, the difference between "very small" and "zero" is a deal-breaker.

And as I heard it put, in four years' time (or maybe eight), people who oppose both Sanders and Trump are going to long for the days of "my good friend Joe Biden" and "I assume some are good people"--assuming that Millennials don't check out entirely and that Generation Z gets involved.

EDIT: Keep in mind that what the exit polling makes clear is that the starkest divide in the Democratic Party this year is a generational one: Millennials and Generation X (45 and under, even 55 in some states) overwhelmingly favour Sanders, while the Boomers and the Silent Generation overwhelmingly (though not quite as overwhelmingly, made up for by the larger numbers in which they vote) favour Biden. Chalk that up to whatever you like--policy, personality, cultish behaviour, whatever--but it's generating a lot of resentment that the older generations, who have Medicare and won't have to deal with the worst effects of climate change, are stomping on the proverbial face of the candidate with the most comprehensive plans to address those issues.
Title: Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
Post by: Cloud3514 on March 18, 2020, 01:53:54 pm
The problem with Bernie Bros refusing to support the Democrats if they can't have 78 year old Jesus is that it's incredibly short sighted and reductionist.

Let's be fucking honest: Both Joe Biden and Bernie Sanders are TERRIBLE candidates. But that's the hand we've been dealt for the Presidency. And the smart thing to do is to choose the option that's going to do the least amount of damage while focusing the places where change can actually happen: Congress. While I'm hoping Sanders can come out on top, despite what the Bernie Bros keep saying based on out of context statements, I don't believe for a second Biden would veto Medicare for All without good reason. But it will be impossible to test that if Mitch McConnell keeps his hands on the Senate. Biden also won't stack the courts with far-right ideologues.

There's WAY more at stake than the White House. In fact, I could entertain an argument that Congress is MORE important. To pretend that Congress and the Judiciary are non-factors in 2020, as a certain candidate's supporters seem to, is utter idiocy.
Title: Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
Post by: dpareja on March 18, 2020, 04:27:52 pm
On the other hand, what some of those on the left of the Democratic Party are now thinking is that the reason they wield very little power is because they haven't credibly threatened to destroy the Democratic Party. Those further to the right (see: Joe Manchin openly talking about maybe switching parties; see also, Jeff Van Drew actually switching parties) wield power because the Democratic Party would be devastated if they switched to the Republican Party.

So what at least some on the left are now saying is, if we don't credibly threaten to sink the Democratic Party in this election by sitting it out--and follow through if necessary--we won't be taken seriously going forward.

I agree that Congress is at least as important (but then, Bush, Obama and Trump have all pushed the "unitary executive" theory where the executive gets to do whatever it wants unless Congress explicitly says no, and even then the President can veto it anyway) but the Presidency is the flashpoint race. It gets the attention, it drives turnout for downballot races.

I disagree with this, to be clear; Justice Ginsburg's age would be enough to make me go vote for Biden were I eligible (as it is, I'm just an outside observer who is nonetheless significantly affected by US policy). But I can understand where others are coming from on the point.
Title: Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
Post by: Vanto on March 18, 2020, 06:04:44 pm
Like dpareja, I don't entirely agree with this "only the presidential race matters" rhetoric, but I do see where it's coming from. The executive branch has had a lot of power to act unilaterally since the Dubya administration.
Title: Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
Post by: Cloud3514 on March 18, 2020, 07:38:48 pm
So that means it makes sense to vote for the guy who will actively make the world worse? Who can't handle any sort of crisis? Who puts his own interests before anything else? Even if the presidency was the only thing at stake, this idea of "I can't have what I want, so I'll help the fascists win" is irresponsible, at best.

I get being disappointed that your guy lost. I'm still pissed about how Warren's campaign went, myself, but this is the hand we're dealt and we have to play with it.
Title: Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
Post by: dpareja on March 18, 2020, 08:11:58 pm
So that means it makes sense to vote for the guy who will actively make the world worse? Who can't handle any sort of crisis? Who puts his own interests before anything else? Even if the presidency was the only thing at stake, this idea of "I can't have what I want, so I'll help the fascists win" is irresponsible, at best.

I get being disappointed that your guy lost. I'm still pissed about how Warren's campaign went, myself, but this is the hand we're dealt and we have to play with it.

As I said, what I imagine quite a few people on the left will do is sit the election out. Not "vote for Trump because fuck Biden but the Democratic downballot candidates are good people" (at best in the "they vote for Trump" situation). Most of them will admit Trump is a horrible human being who isn't qualified to run a convenience store. Sit it out.

Keep in mind that sitting it out (or voting third-party) has, in an effective two-candidate race, only half the effect that voting for the other candidate does. If there are seven votes and normally Party A gets 5 and Party B gets 2 (a majority of three), then if two Party A supporters sit it out or vote third-party, Party A still wins 3-2 (a majority of one; hence a reduction of two). But if they switch, Party B wins 4-3 (a majority of one for the other party; hence a reduction of four).
Title: Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
Post by: Cloud3514 on March 18, 2020, 08:44:58 pm
Yeah, I think I kind of mixed messages in that last post. I meant to say that sitting out or voting third party is irresponsible and helps the Republicans win. Voting for Trump is actively harmful and is obviously worse than sitting out (which voting third party may as well be).
Title: Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
Post by: dpareja on March 18, 2020, 11:49:03 pm
Here's a bit of what may be good news: Dan Lipinski, the anti-choice, anti-LGBT rights, anti-ACA Representative for the D+6 Illinois 3rd, lost his primary to challenger Marie Newman by about 2,500 votes (of around 100,000) in a rematch of his 2018 primary fight.
Title: Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
Post by: DarkPhoenix on March 19, 2020, 04:10:15 am
Keep in mind that what the exit polling makes clear is that the starkest divide in the Democratic Party this year is a generational one: Millennials and Generation X (45 and under, even 55 in some states) overwhelmingly favour Sanders, while the Boomers and the Silent Generation overwhelmingly (though not quite as overwhelmingly, made up for by the larger numbers in which they vote) favour Biden. Chalk that up to whatever you like--policy, personality, cultish behaviour, whatever--but it's generating a lot of resentment that the older generations, who have Medicare and won't have to deal with the worst effects of climate change, are stomping on the proverbial face of the candidate with the most comprehensive plans to address those issues.

Every poll I've seen shows that the only group that went heavily for Sanders is Millenials; Gen-X went for Joe Biden as well.  And Millenials also had the LEAST representation among voters.

In fact, Joe's comeback was fueled by otherwise non-voting Gen-X'ers appearing at the polls to vote for him...
Title: Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
Post by: ironbite on March 19, 2020, 08:23:40 am
Seriously.  Biden has somehow energized a base of non-voters and gotten them to vote for him.  That's no mean feat.  If he adopts certain plans and policies as planks for November, well polls do show him beating Trump.

Ironbite-honestly I think Trump's response to this current pandemic has pretty much sunk his reelection chances.
Title: Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
Post by: dpareja on March 19, 2020, 10:20:53 am
Keep in mind that what the exit polling makes clear is that the starkest divide in the Democratic Party this year is a generational one: Millennials and Generation X (45 and under, even 55 in some states) overwhelmingly favour Sanders, while the Boomers and the Silent Generation overwhelmingly (though not quite as overwhelmingly, made up for by the larger numbers in which they vote) favour Biden. Chalk that up to whatever you like--policy, personality, cultish behaviour, whatever--but it's generating a lot of resentment that the older generations, who have Medicare and won't have to deal with the worst effects of climate change, are stomping on the proverbial face of the candidate with the most comprehensive plans to address those issues.

Every poll I've seen shows that the only group that went heavily for Sanders is Millenials; Gen-X went for Joe Biden as well.  And Millenials also had the LEAST representation among voters.

In fact, Joe's comeback was fueled by otherwise non-voting Gen-X'ers appearing at the polls to vote for him...

Maybe it depends on the state. I've seen some exit polling in which Sanders was doing well with more than just Millennials.

That Millennials have the lowest turnout of the various age brackets is a major handicap for a campaign largely aimed at energizing that generation, of course.
Title: Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
Post by: Skybison on March 21, 2020, 01:07:27 am
I had a nightmare last night that Trump used that pandemic as an excuse to cancel the election.
Title: Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
Post by: Id82 on March 21, 2020, 08:46:26 am
He doesn't have that kind of authority. That decision would have to go through Congress first. Thankfully he doesn't have control of the house.
Title: Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
Post by: dpareja on March 21, 2020, 02:44:25 pm
Has Congress specifically denied the President that authority? Under the theory of the executive advanced by the last few administrations, that's what would be required.
Title: Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
Post by: ironbite on March 21, 2020, 03:14:19 pm
He never had that authority to be denied in the first place.

Ironbite-please don't attribute power to the office that it doesn't have ok?
Title: Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
Post by: dpareja on March 21, 2020, 04:07:19 pm
He never had that authority to be denied in the first place.

Ironbite-please don't attribute power to the office that it doesn't have ok?

I'm not. Of course he doesn't have that authority.

But the "unitary executive" theory, especially as advanced by the Bush administration (and continued to an extent by the Obama administration, and held to by at least some members of the Trump administration) holds that if the President asserts that he does have that authority, and Congress can't muster a two-thirds majority to override a veto of a bill saying he doesn't, then he does.
Title: Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
Post by: Vanto on March 21, 2020, 05:53:31 pm
There are good reasons the executive branch's powers to act unilaterally were reduced after Nixon. Unfortunately, it seems like too many of us have failed to learn from history.
Title: Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
Post by: dpareja on March 21, 2020, 06:04:24 pm
There are good reasons the executive branch's powers to act unilaterally were reduced after Nixon. Unfortunately, it seems like too many of us have failed to learn from history.

Except not really, probably the hallmark legislation on that front, the War Powers Act, still allows the President to veto any resolution passed under it (as it must, as a Constitutional matter). Same with Congressional review of executive orders (the Supreme Court actually struck down the one-house veto provision as unconstitutional). So that still gives the executive branch broad power to act unless Congress musters two-thirds in both the House and the Senate to override a veto.

This is why, for instance, the US is still complicit in the genocide in Yemen.
Title: Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
Post by: Kanzenkankaku on March 23, 2020, 12:45:36 am
If Joe does lose, I feel like it will be another Hillary situation. It'll have a variety of different factors but some bitter people with a myopic worldview will exclusively blame the left generally, and "Bernie Bros" in particular, instead of looking big picture.
Title: Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
Post by: SCarpelan on March 23, 2020, 09:25:36 am
If Joe does lose, I feel like it will be another Hillary situation. It'll have a variety of different factors but some bitter people with a myopic worldview will exclusively blame the left generally, and "Bernie Bros" in particular, instead of looking big picture.

It's not just a myopic world view. For those involved in the losing campaign it could be a cynical way to dodge responsibility for their mistakes and minimize the damage to their power and influence.
Title: Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
Post by: dpareja on March 23, 2020, 10:49:49 am
https://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/488780-sanders-raises-over-2-million-for-coronavirus-relief-effort

Meanwhile, with his campaign effectively dead, Sen. Sanders has turned to his donor list and raised around $2,000,000 from 50,000 donors for coronavirus relief efforts.
Title: Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
Post by: niam2023 on March 23, 2020, 04:54:42 pm
I'll admit, I'm curious to see who the dirtbag left will turn to next for their Great Progressive Messiah.

So are all of you saying the people who turned out to support Biden were mistaken in their support?
Title: Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
Post by: Cloud3514 on March 23, 2020, 07:21:52 pm
The problem is that the remaining Democrats with views around the same are as Sanders are people like Warren (a woman who they see as just as right wing as the Republicans because she wont worship Sanders), Booker (who isn't nationally popular and is black) and Waters (who is a black woman).

Sanders is the perfect storm to attract support from the dirtbag left. He openly endorses "socialism," and he's the right kind of minority for them to consider him white while having ammo to shoot at people who call him white.
Title: Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
Post by: dpareja on March 23, 2020, 09:43:11 pm
Remember, AOC will be just barely old enough to be President come January 2025.

EDIT: Also Warren's lack of endorsement for Sanders (twice!) has made her anathema among certain segments of the left (the honest ones will still give her full credit for the CFPB, even if they're disillusioned with her now), Booker's killing a drug reimportation bill made him dead before he started (note: don't reimport drugs from us, we have cheaper drugs because we negotiate lower prices in exchange for lower supply, pass your own drug price negotiation bill), and as for the boxes Waters checks, Nina Turner checks those boxes and has been vocally pro-Sanders almost from the time he announced in 2016, unlike Waters.
Title: Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
Post by: Cloud3514 on March 23, 2020, 11:09:27 pm
I would expect AOC to get the "I'd vote for a woman, but not that woman" treatment that Clinton and Warren got. The dirtbag left is more sexist than they want you to think they are. My point is that they're going to find excuses to not support people that should right what they say they want to obscure that they're just racist or sexist.
Title: Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
Post by: dpareja on March 23, 2020, 11:21:01 pm
I would expect AOC to get the "I'd vote for a woman, but not that woman" treatment that Clinton and Warren got. The dirtbag left is more sexist than they want you to think they are. My point is that they're going to find excuses to not support people that should right what they say they want to obscure that they're just racist or sexist.

Oh, I fully expect a segment of the left to toss AOC in the trash, if for no other reason/excuse than that she admitted on camera that she was willing to compromise to a public option on healthcare.

Whether this is the actual reason or just the excuse is another matter entirely.
Title: Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
Post by: niam2023 on March 23, 2020, 11:36:24 pm
The dirtbag left is really just the "alt-left", our own version of the alt-right, and unlike Republicans, we need to toss them out and tell them they are not welcome.

The Republicans frolic with the alt-right and enjoy their continued support and even candidates in their party who are members of the alt-right.

I do not want to see a world where we have Chapo meme tweeting left wing prospective congressmen.
Title: Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
Post by: dpareja on March 24, 2020, 12:06:35 am
The dirty secret of the Tea Party is that it worked, gave the Republicans Congress and the courts, and pushed the Overton window far to the right.
Title: Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
Post by: DarkPhoenix on March 24, 2020, 12:07:11 am
Remember, AOC will be just barely old enough to be President come January 2025.

AOC revealed that she became disillusioned with the Bernie campaign because of Joe Rogan and Bernie's refusal to try and reach out to the rest of the Dem party, and so she started to lower the number of appearances she made for promoting him.  The dirtbag left has thus turned on her, blaming her for the failure of the Sanders campaign over the last few weeks, because they're sexist pricks.
Title: Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
Post by: niam2023 on March 24, 2020, 12:26:05 am
How predictable.
Title: Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
Post by: Cloud3514 on March 24, 2020, 12:49:28 am
AOC should be the future of the Democratic party. She's got the drive to push it left and the potential to bring the establishment with her, as well as being young enough that she's only going to become more and more recognizable and popular.

The problem is, it takes very little for the likes of the dirtbag left to turn on people.
Title: Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
Post by: niam2023 on March 24, 2020, 01:33:26 am
Presumably they'll make every effort once Bernie dies to hook that fucking corpse up to a golden throne and start uttering hymns to try and keep it alive.
Title: Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
Post by: dpareja on March 24, 2020, 02:56:13 am
I don't doubt that there are plenty of Sanders supporters who are all in on him and won't support literally anyone else.

I also don't doubt that there are plenty of Sanders supporters who support him because of the policies he proposes and would vote for someone like AOC.
Title: Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
Post by: Cloud3514 on March 24, 2020, 03:41:10 am
Sure, there are plenty of people who legitimately believe Sanders to be the best choice for President. I don't agree with them for a number of reasons (obviously), but he really does have supporters who treat him like a holy savior.
Title: Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
Post by: RavynousHunter on March 24, 2020, 10:19:33 am
Honestly, I feel like Sanders would be a better choice for VP.  Everybody wants the big hat because they think its got the most influence, but the Vice President's got a fair amount more pull with the legislature than the President does.  Maybe a Biden/Sanders ticket or something along those lines; mollify those on Bernie's side by the fact he'll still be in a position of significant power while giving a more approachable face to the Oval Office.
Title: Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
Post by: SCarpelan on March 24, 2020, 03:48:12 pm
I'd like to throw in one important observation from an outsider's perspective. I have accustomed to the political discussion and debate in the Finnish media and while there are ideological paradigms that are accepted implicitly in the coverage that is inevitable. Most of the media will lean by default towards the center ground of whatever the borders of Overton's window are in its environment. When tuning on to the American debates I expected that the implicit perspective would be from the center to far right compared to my environment.

The very scary observation I made is that the American coverage is very different. In general, the debate moderators wear this ideological bias in their sleeve instead of implicitly in the background and there is an artificial narrative construction is very clearly present the analysis parts. If a Finnish TV channel would broadcast a debate in the vein of those I watched it would be pilloried by political journalists; some moments might even end up as headlines in the yellow press.

There were moments where I felt they were channelling a mirror image of the Soviet propaganda machine. A huge difference to the more crude propaganda is that most of the time the questions and discussions were while more superficial than I've used to pretty fairly presented when you account for the different Overton's window. The actual propagandistic moments were precision strikes in between the more fair coverage. I am genuinely confused: is this really what passes as politically neutral coverage in the US?

Quote
Honestly, I feel like Sanders would be a better choice for VP.
Hell no. I say this as someone whose clear favourite he is. Both Biden and Sanders would need a younger VP since there is a very real chance they would end up taking over.

Edit: I just realized my username and profile image are very appropriate to this discussion. Stig Carpelan is satire of a dreadfully dry and boring political journalist from a sketch show.
Title: Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
Post by: dpareja on March 24, 2020, 03:59:32 pm
Honestly, I feel like Sanders would be a better choice for VP.  Everybody wants the big hat because they think its got the most influence, but the Vice President's got a fair amount more pull with the legislature than the President does.  Maybe a Biden/Sanders ticket or something along those lines; mollify those on Bernie's side by the fact he'll still be in a position of significant power while giving a more approachable face to the Oval Office.

Biden's already said he'll pick a woman, and almost certainly a non-white woman. My money's on Stacey Abrams or Kamala Harris. If he really wanted to mollify Sanders' supporters, he'd pick Nina Turner, but some of them might be satisfied with Barbara Lee.
Title: Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
Post by: niam2023 on March 24, 2020, 08:27:15 pm
Polls came out recently that show Biden AND Sanders beating Trump.

We'll see if it holds true, but that should show that "ONLY MUH SANDERS CAN BEAT TRUMP" is not a universal sentiment.
Title: Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
Post by: dpareja on March 24, 2020, 08:30:40 pm
Polls came out recently that show Biden AND Sanders beating Trump.

We'll see if it holds true, but that should show that "ONLY MUH SANDERS CAN BEAT TRUMP" is not a universal sentiment.

There've been plenty of polls that show Biden beating Trump.

There were also plenty of polls that showed Clinton beating Trump.

And for myself, I've never said "Bernie Would Have Won" (and will not say it after November 3, 2020, whatever the result) since I think there are too many unknowns to say that with any remote sense of certainty.
Title: Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
Post by: Id82 on March 24, 2020, 09:38:34 pm
Trump's approval rating is at 50 percent now. I don't know if he can be beaten in just seven months. If polls are saying Biden can beat Trump than it's really going to be close.
Title: Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
Post by: dpareja on March 25, 2020, 12:01:01 am
Trump's approval rating might be at 50% but we'll see if the dead bodies start mounting.

Also, bets on whether the DNC will replace Biden at the convention, and if so, with whom? Andrew Cuomo or Gavin Newsom, perhaps?
Title: Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
Post by: DarkPhoenix on March 25, 2020, 12:56:02 am
I'd like to throw in one important observation from an outsider's perspective. I have accustomed to the political discussion and debate in the Finnish media and while there are ideological paradigms that are accepted implicitly in the coverage that is inevitable. Most of the media will lean by default towards the center ground of whatever the borders of Overton's window are in its environment. When tuning on to the American debates I expected that the implicit perspective would be from the center to far right compared to my environment.

The very scary observation I made is that the American coverage is very different. In general, the debate moderators wear this ideological bias in their sleeve instead of implicitly in the background and there is an artificial narrative construction is very clearly present the analysis parts. If a Finnish TV channel would broadcast a debate in the vein of those I watched it would be pilloried by political journalists; some moments might even end up as headlines in the yellow press.

There were moments where I felt they were channelling a mirror image of the Soviet propaganda machine. A huge difference to the more crude propaganda is that most of the time the questions and discussions were while more superficial than I've used to pretty fairly presented when you account for the different Overton's window. The actual propagandistic moments were precision strikes in between the more fair coverage. I am genuinely confused: is this really what passes as politically neutral coverage in the US?

Quote
Honestly, I feel like Sanders would be a better choice for VP.
Hell no. I say this as someone whose clear favourite he is. Both Biden and Sanders would need a younger VP since there is a very real chance they would end up taking over.

Edit: I just realized my username and profile image are very appropriate to this discussion. Stig Carpelan is satire of a dreadfully dry and boring political journalist from a sketch show.

The big problem with American political discourse is that all of the news networks are owned by billionaires.  And it's clear that while the amount of push on the stories varies from network to network, every network in the US wants to force the discussion towards topics the big bosses want to hear about... And for most of said networks, the big bosses are Republican.  Thus every political discussion is slanted towards Republican viewpoints.  This is what leads to the propaganda questions you mentioned; that, and there is nothing the US MSM loves more than a horse race, and they'll get it no matter what they have to do.  The truth is generally the first causality.  And they're so wedded to this horse-race BothSides bullshit, that they will willingly bring on liars, con-men and morons to give the appearance of hearing from BothSides... And they never acknowledge that one side is entirely without merit.

Trump's approval rating is at 50 percent now. I don't know if he can be beaten in just seven months. If polls are saying Biden can beat Trump than it's really going to be close.

Trump's approval rating is not at 50%; it's at 45%.  The 50% was a 100-person survey MSNBC conducted asking "Do you think the President has done a good or bad job at handling the Coronavirus crisis?"  Clearly they didn't screen for MAGAts.
Title: Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
Post by: Id82 on March 25, 2020, 04:53:04 am
This is based on 538s, I guess a more accurate way to say it's disapproval rating which stands at 50.8 percent.
Title: Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
Post by: DarkPhoenix on March 25, 2020, 01:21:21 pm
This is based on 538s, I guess a more accurate way to say it's disapproval rating which stands at 50.8 percent.
Here:
https://civiqs.com/results/approve_president_trump?annotations=true&uncertainty=true&zoomIn=true&utm_campaign=ticker

Civiqs has the advantage of aggregating multiple polling sources into a general result.  His approval rating is 45%, which is still too high, but he's never been above 50%.
Title: Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
Post by: Kanzenkankaku on April 01, 2020, 07:57:27 pm
Remember, AOC will be just barely old enough to be President come January 2025.

AOC revealed that she became disillusioned with the Bernie campaign because of Joe Rogan and Bernie's refusal to try and reach out to the rest of the Dem party, and so she started to lower the number of appearances she made for promoting him.  The dirtbag left has thus turned on her, blaming her for the failure of the Sanders campaign over the last few weeks, because they're sexist pricks.

All I'm seeing looking this up is shit like The Blaze (Glenn Beck's rag) and National review (which has been a rag since before I was even alive). So I don't trust its that big of a deal and feels like they're looking to sow division. It's sad if that's all it takes for her to back off because Bernie didn't even need to change any of his progressive positions to get Rogan's vote, Rogan struggles with LGBT issues but he's hardly as much of a reactionary as a few of his guests are. I love her still though b/c fuck in-fighting.

Also I dislike how some people on here are talking like Bernie supporters are cultists or that CTH is acshually this super bad thing. It feels like I'm reading a right wing reddit when I read those posts.
Title: Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
Post by: dpareja on April 01, 2020, 08:50:45 pm
If Sanders supporters were a cult, and Sanders a cult leader, they'd all have voted for Clinton in 2016 and they'd all vote for Biden this year. They didn't and won't.

Still did so in higher proportions than Clinton supporters did for Obama in 2008.
Title: Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
Post by: DarkPhoenix on April 02, 2020, 09:15:25 am
Remember, AOC will be just barely old enough to be President come January 2025.

AOC revealed that she became disillusioned with the Bernie campaign because of Joe Rogan and Bernie's refusal to try and reach out to the rest of the Dem party, and so she started to lower the number of appearances she made for promoting him.  The dirtbag left has thus turned on her, blaming her for the failure of the Sanders campaign over the last few weeks, because they're sexist pricks.

All I'm seeing looking this up is shit like The Blaze (Glenn Beck's rag) and National review (which has been a rag since before I was even alive). So I don't trust its that big of a deal and feels like they're looking to sow division. It's sad if that's all it takes for her to back off because Bernie didn't even need to change any of his progressive positions to get Rogan's vote, Rogan struggles with LGBT issues but he's hardly as much of a reactionary as a few of his guests are. I love her still though b/c fuck in-fighting.

Also I dislike how some people on here are talking like Bernie supporters are cultists or that CTH is acshually this super bad thing. It feels like I'm reading a right wing reddit when I read those posts.

Here: https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2020/3/30/1932714/-Alexandria-Ocasio-Cortez-breaks-with-Bernie-because-she-can-do-math-and-30-doesn-t-win-anything

And Chapo Trap House is awful.  Someone on Bernie's campaign should have condemned their rhetoric, but no one did.  Instead, high level Bernie supporters appeared on the show...
Title: Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
Post by: SCarpelan on April 02, 2020, 02:43:53 pm
I have yet to see clear evidence that the Bernie Bro thing is distinct from other passionate support or that they are more sexist than other people of the same age and gender. Before them Obama Boys were a thing, you know - another candidate who went against the party machine's favourite and rhetorically outflanked her from the left and whose supporters were targeted with the same accusations. After all, if you are a woman and dare to have a political opinion you will get sexist harassment. If you are not a white cis-man you get bigoted harassment.* Since you don't encounter the harassment the people on the other side do, it's easy to perceive that the other side is worse. Anecdotally, if you are a vocal woman who supported Clinton in 2016 but Sanders in 2020 the harassers have changed but the harassment is subjectively similar. Also, if your job is to construct political narratives it is easy to use this very real harassment to build a cynical attack against the other side and your position means you have a large audience and a lot of resources to invest in this.

There is another comparison with 2008 campaigns to be made to see how good faith the criticism against Sanders is. He is being bombarded with demands to drop out and has been accused of hanging on for too long in 2016. In 2016, he maintained his campaign as a leverage in negotiations about the party platform and after dropping out campaigned actively for Clinton. In 2008, Clinton hung on until the end and her supporters formed PUMA: People United Means Action or Party Unity My Ass; some of whom voted for McCain to give Clinton a new chance in 2012. If I give the benefit of a doubt to the people attacking Sanders about this while giving Clinton and her supporters a pass I'd say that the bitterness wasn't there in 2008 because Obama ended up winning while Clinton lost in 2016. While there might be some of this involved, I'm more convinced that political operatives are acting according to the incentives of their positions in the system and as rational and competent professionals are using situations at hand to craft narratives that most likely keep them in power. I don't want to demonize these people, I want the power structures and incentives to be changed so that their skills are used to promote better causes.

One thing to remember is that the Democratic Party is not a leftist organization. While they have leftist members the current politics of the party structure lean center-right at best. The party machine is either too incompetent to push the Overton window to the left or unwilling to do so. I am leaning to the latter since that's what the systemic incentives and concrete actions seem to suggest but in the end it matters only little, the power dynamics must change either way. This is a huge problem to me from a global perspective: there is no effective counterweight to the right-wing zealots of the Republican Party or an effective power to resist them dragging the Overton window further to the right which directly reflects to USA's intertwined foreign and economic policies. More leftist policies would also greatly benefit the American people whom I care about as fellow human beings.

How to change an institution that resists it? Create an outside power base to provide support and pressure. Promote grassroots activism and union power, spread class consciousness and empower the working class. This strategy is a major reason why I like Sanders and it has a chance to bear fruit independently of his success - another even more important one is that he recognizes the necessity of global leftist co-operation. He stumbled in a situation in 2016 where he gained actual power on the national level and has used it to build something that if it survives can bear fruit in the future. Ironically, this primary has shown that a lot of the original support that gave this power were rural white anti-Hillary voters who don't actually care about him or his agenda but he has been able to mobilize previous non-voters - most noticeably young people of all races and latinos in general. The more conservative, older Democratic voters have just been mobilized by the anti-Trump sentiment in greater numbers and they were successfully united behind Biden. While Sanders has shown that he is not the most effective of leaders - neither skilled enough negotiator to unite leftist institutions nor machiavellian enough to destroy his opponents - I respect him for the movement he has created.

*As a side note one must also account for the trolls. Both organized and spontaneous trolls will join in such harassment amplifying it to create division or just for lulz.
Title: Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
Post by: DarkPhoenix on April 02, 2020, 03:49:17 pm
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/02/29/us/politics/bernie-sanders-chapo-trap-house.html

I have no idea what category these maniacs fall into, but I don't think their goal is dragging the Dem party anywhere...

Quote
The people in the crowd were angry, and “Chapo Trap House” wanted them to stay that way. The five hosts of the popular socialist podcast wanted everyone to know they had all been lied to. About everything.

The media they consumed was fake news aimed to distract them from the only war worth fighting: the class war. Politesse, civility, even pleasure — those were tools of the neoliberal oppressor. The right answer is rage.

“That joy,” the Chapo co-host Will Menaker said to the crowd gathered in Iowa City on the eve of the Iowa caucus. “That’s good but it’s not as good a motivator when you’re really going to war as spite.”

“Let the hate feed you,” the co-host Amber A’Lee Frost added as the audience roared.

And it does. Especially toward other Democrats.

Supporters of former Vice President Joseph R. Biden Jr. are “gelatinous 100-year-olds.”

Former Mayor Pete Buttigieg is “a bloodless asexual.”

“The gayest thing about him is he descends from an ethnic group that’s like a little toy dog,” Ms. A’Lee Frost said.

When Senator Elizabeth Warren’s name came up, the crowd made the sound of a snake hissing. She had accused Senator Bernie Sanders of saying that a woman could not beat President Trump, and so she is a snake.

“Yes, my sssssoldiers,” Mr. Menaker said.

Former Mayor Michael R. Bloomberg’s run appalls them. “Beat him so badly that this midget gremlin won’t even have a shot even with a trillion dollars,” Mr. Menaker said.

“Kill him,” someone shouted from the audience. These were jokes, of course. Everyone was laughing.

As Mr. Sanders rises in the polls and claims strong showings in early states, a new set of media stars is on the rise, too. Leading the pack are the hosts of “Chapo Trap House,” the Pied Pipers of the candidate’s online movement.

In their rowdy, vulgar weekly podcast, they are stoking the fires of a political insurgency led by their 78-year-old idol. The man stands for the movement, the movement is the man.

“Our boy Bernie” they call him.

The fivesome of “Chapo Trap House" are not the only bards of the new American left — there is “Red Scare” and another whose name cannot be printed — but they have led the way for a movement that together generates millions of dollars a year. They are on their way to becoming the socialist’s answer to right-wing shock jock radio. Their primary targets, in evidence at that show in Iowa, are not the Republican Party or even Mr. Trump but rather centrist liberals, whom they see as the major obstacle to a workers’ revolution.

In blurring occasionally violent humor, jovial community meetups and radical politics, they are the Tea Party reborn for progressives, and for their fans the appeal is in a bawdy offensive balance to cautious mainstream liberal politics.

They are known collectively as the Dirtbag Left, a shorthand they embrace that winkingly dispenses with any notion of liberal purity or inclusion, a defense mechanism that doubles as a nickname.
Title: Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
Post by: SCarpelan on April 02, 2020, 06:52:14 pm
Chapo are shock jocks who use vulgarity as a political tool (https://www.currentaffairs.org/2016/05/the-necessity-of-political-vulgarity[/quote) but are entertainers, not political leaders. Combine Howard Stern's vulgarity, Jon Stewart's political comedy, and socialist politics and you get them. Add dudebro ironic memers and you get their fans. While they have coined the term Dirtbag Left them and their fans are just one crude expression of those particular politics and even they are not actual bigots. What I know of them is based mostly on their appearances outside their own podcast (their vulgar humor is not my cup of tea) but I took time to do some research after reading this thread since the reactions here were so extreme. And yes, they do cross the line sometimes. Namely, when using humor that makes light of sexual violence which they have apologised for. Otherwise I don't see bigotry, only vulgarity that occasionally crosses a line like such humor has a risk of doing. The instances of rape humor I condemn unequivocally but that is not the totality of their content and it seems to be limited to few instances that they have apologised for and donated to charity as a gesture of repentance.

Which one is worse? Installing and defending racist policies that destroy people's lives and probably killed many or making violent shock jokes about a person who has done so? Questioning priorities of liberal politics is at the center of their performance. You can be a bigoted white supremacist (Bloomberg) or a war criminal who has caused thousands of deaths (Bush jr.) and still be an accepted member of high class society but make vulgar, disrespectful jokes and you are a lunatic. I didn't find instances of them promoting violence against a vulnerable group of people or dehumanizing a such a group which is the type of "ironic" humor that encourages bigots to violent acts. While their brand of humor does not appeal to me personally, I think it is ridiculous to compare them to alt-right. And yes, if there is a violent plot or act inspired by them I will reconsider my opinion.

I see Sanders campaign touting Joe Rogan's endorsement as a bigger blunder than the campaign members appearing in Chapo. While Rogan's bigoted views had nothing to do with the endorsement he still is a bigot. Chapo are not as far as I can see.

What is the ideological ground Dirtbag Left stands on? Criticism of the liberal hypocricy and white upper class feminism is an integral part as is the emphasis on class politics. Claiming that they ignore identity politics is a strawman, though, class reductionism is also seen as harmful since class and identity are intertwined. Turning identity politics into a tool for class oppression actually harms vulnerable groups since they are disproportionally working class instead of upper class and class reductionists' blindness to bigotry shuts down minority voices within working class. There is a constructive dialogue among leftist activists (both "Dirtbag Left" and "SJW left") about where is the line on eather side where you start doing more harm than good and how to combine different approaches. The disagreement isn't on goals, it's on tactics.

From a personal experience I can say that lurking around in spaces many of which fall under the definition of Dirtbag Left has taught me about minority issues I was ignorant before; namely those of non-binary and non-passing trans people (and conflicts within trans community). It seems trans rights are a current battleground in the culture wars and the online left seems to have been unified in that fight. Again, there is disagreement about means and long term goals (gender abolition or not?) but the short term goals are common: equal rights for trans people of all kind.

And how do Dirtbag leftists relate to Bernie Sanders? From what I have seen, while they meme about him their feet are on the ground more firmly than I would have expected. Their politics that usually are far to the left of him, so they see him as a figurehead to be used, not an idol to be worshipped. There is not nearly as much gringy fawning about him as a person as there is for example in TYT.

And is Sanders a bigoted class reductionist? Not according to Barbara Smith (https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/feb/10/identity-politics-bernie-sanders-endorsement), a (black, lesbian) feminist scholar who helped coin the term identity politics.

Quote from: Barbara Smith
I am often disheartened, however, to see support for identity politics and intersectionality reduced to buzzwords. I am supporting Bernie Sanders for president because I believe that his campaign and his understanding of politics complements the priorities that women of color defined decades ago.

Edit: Oh, I forgot something important: when it comes to Dirtbag Left and fight around it it's very much an online phenomenon. It is important to note that it is only a part of leftist activism sphere and most of the real work is done offline. Go to an average grassroots activist offline - whether connected to Sanders campaign or not - and there is a good chance that asking about that kind of issues gets you a confused stare.
Title: Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
Post by: dpareja on April 02, 2020, 08:46:38 pm
Quoted verbatim, racial slurs and all:

Quote
You start out in 1954 by saying, "Nigger, nigger, nigger." By 1968 you can't say "Nigger"--that hurts you. Backfires. So you say stuff like forced busing, states' rights, and all that stuff. And you're getting so abstract now you're talking about cutting taxes, and all these things you're talking about are totally economic things and a byproduct of them is blacks get hurt worse than whites. ... "We want to cut this," is much more abstract than even the busing thing, and a hell of a lot more abstract than "Nigger, nigger."

--Lee Atwater
Title: Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
Post by: dpareja on April 08, 2020, 11:48:41 am
https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/sanders-democratic-campaign-1.5526158

And Sanders is done.
Title: Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
Post by: ironbite on April 08, 2020, 11:51:41 am
And cue the liberals crying that now we'll have 4 more years of Trump.  THE ELECTION HASN'T EVEN HAPPENED AND YOU'RE ALREADY CONCEDING YOU DUMB MOTHERFUCKERS!  WHERE THE FUCK WERE YOU IN THE PRIMARIES!?

Ironbite-I hate the Left some times.
Title: Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
Post by: Cloud3514 on April 08, 2020, 03:59:34 pm
You know, I don't think I saw a single Warren supporter declare that they were going to sit out, vote third party or (*shudder*) vote Trump after she dropped out, despite how the Bernie Bros acted towards them. For Sanders supporters? Where the fuck do I even begin?

I do believe that most Sanders supporters will at least be willing to vote pragmatically, even if they won't acknowledge that his lost due to his own failings.
Title: Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
Post by: SCarpelan on April 08, 2020, 04:17:04 pm
And cue the liberals crying that now we'll have 4 more years of Trump.  THE ELECTION HASN'T EVEN HAPPENED AND YOU'RE ALREADY CONCEDING YOU DUMB MOTHERFUCKERS!  WHERE THE FUCK WERE YOU IN THE PRIMARIES!?

Ironbite-I hate the Left some times.

They are in the anger phase of coping with the situation. I don't care what they say now, I care what they do when the election comes. If they act at all like in the last election the majority will go to the polls to vote for Biden.

There are real reasons for the pessimism, though. How Biden will do in the campaign against Trump? Biden's declining cognitive capabilities could result in a humiliation in the debate stage and that could make people say fuck this and stay home. Trump attacks any weakness he sees ruthlessly, unlike Biden's primary opponents. Another weakness of Biden are the sexual harassment allegations and the way his family has participated in the systematic corruption (nothing illegal, just taking advantage of the opportunities their position offers). Trump is of course much worse but Democratic voters care more about that than Republicans so if Trump can drag Biden to the same mudpit with him it could also decrease the enthusiasm of Biden's voters.

On the other hand, Covid-19 is a huge uncertainty. The utter incompetence of Trump's administration in dealing with it can kill his voters' enthusiasm in a way that no Democratic strategy could hope for. That is the main lifeline for Biden's presidential hopes. His voters' enthusiasm ratings are horrible according to polls but if Trump's rabid base actually crumbles it is a game changer. It doesn't help Trump if he can get Democratic voters to stay home if his own voters do the same.
Title: Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
Post by: dpareja on April 08, 2020, 04:20:07 pm
And cue the liberals crying that now we'll have 4 more years of Trump.  THE ELECTION HASN'T EVEN HAPPENED AND YOU'RE ALREADY CONCEDING YOU DUMB MOTHERFUCKERS!  WHERE THE FUCK WERE YOU IN THE PRIMARIES!?

Ironbite-I hate the Left some times.

They are in the anger phase of coping with the situation. I don't care what they say now, I care what they do when the election comes. If they act at all like in the last election the majority will go to the polls to vote for Biden.

I think current estimates are around 85%, which is a touch lower than the estimated 87.5% of Sanders supporters who voted for Clinton (though plenty did stay home--that's the real wildcard).
Title: Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
Post by: Eiki-mun on April 08, 2020, 04:36:41 pm
I hate having to put it this way, but in the end, it's true - in the political system that we have, a Bernie supporter choosing to sit at home rather than vote for Biden because he's bitter about his primary favorite losing is basically half a vote for Trump. I don't like it but it's the simple facts. I voted for Bernie in the CA primary, and I'm going to vote Biden this November, and that's just the logical thing to do if you don't like Trump.

...Now, Bernie supporters, you do dislike Trump, right?
Title: Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
Post by: DarkPhoenix on April 08, 2020, 04:47:18 pm
And cue the liberals crying that now we'll have 4 more years of Trump.  THE ELECTION HASN'T EVEN HAPPENED AND YOU'RE ALREADY CONCEDING YOU DUMB MOTHERFUCKERS!  WHERE THE FUCK WERE YOU IN THE PRIMARIES!?

Ironbite-I hate the Left some times.

They already have websites set up for not voting Dem because "BERNIE LOST!"... And they've got #DemExit trending on Twitter...

Moronic idiots.  If Trump wins again, even if he actually leaves in 4 years (I wouldn't put it past him to try and become King), it'll probably lead to him replacing RBG and Breyer with two more Kavanaughs.  With a 7-2 majority on the Supreme Court, you can forget about Bernie's ENTIRE AGENDA for a generation; they'll declare the whole thing unConstitutional...
Title: Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
Post by: davedan on April 08, 2020, 05:22:52 pm
I would be careful as to how many of those things are genuine. Lot's of these are bots or grifters. Look at the the whole #walkaway movement.
Title: Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
Post by: Eiki-mun on April 08, 2020, 05:32:25 pm
And cue the liberals crying that now we'll have 4 more years of Trump.  THE ELECTION HASN'T EVEN HAPPENED AND YOU'RE ALREADY CONCEDING YOU DUMB MOTHERFUCKERS!  WHERE THE FUCK WERE YOU IN THE PRIMARIES!?

Ironbite-I hate the Left some times.

They already have websites set up for not voting Dem because "BERNIE LOST!"... And they've got #DemExit trending on Twitter...

Moronic idiots.  If Trump wins again, even if he actually leaves in 4 years (I wouldn't put it past him to try and become King), it'll probably lead to him replacing RBG and Breyer with two more Kavanaughs.  With a 7-2 majority on the Supreme Court, you can forget about Bernie's ENTIRE AGENDA for a generation; they'll declare the whole thing unConstitutional...

More than a generation. 30-40 years at least.
Title: Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
Post by: Cloud3514 on April 08, 2020, 07:34:33 pm
I've officially lost track of how many Bernie supporters I've seen already diagnosing how the Democrats will respond to a Trump victory as if the election was already over. The sheer lack of self-awareness on how they've pointed to everything except for Sanders himself for Sanders' loss is hypocritical and exactly what I expected.
Title: Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
Post by: dpareja on April 08, 2020, 09:20:54 pm
Just wondering, how many people in Clinton's camp blamed Clinton for her loss?
Title: Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
Post by: niam2023 on April 08, 2020, 09:27:51 pm
I have legit seen dirtbag left folks saying shit like "fucking blacks, they don't know how good they'd have it under a Sanders Presidency. Way to go proving right wing stereotypes!"

At this point, they're just the alt-right with a different paint job.
Title: Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
Post by: Cloud3514 on April 08, 2020, 10:23:14 pm
Just wondering, how many people in Clinton's camp blamed Clinton for her loss?


A fair point. I think the hypocrisy is more the problem than anything.
Title: Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
Post by: dpareja on April 08, 2020, 11:29:27 pm
The hypocrisy runs rampant among all factions in politics. (Stephen Harper, who as Prime Minister put forward 400-page omnibus budget bills, once criticized Jean Chrétien for his government's 40-page omnibus budget bills.) I wonder how many people in Biden's camp will act like Biden was entitled to Sanders' supporters' votes should he lose:

Quote from: Joe Biden
And to Bernie’s supporters: I know that I need to earn your votes. And I know that might take time. But I want you to know that I see you, I hear you, and I understand the urgency of this moment. I hope you'll join us. You're more than welcome: You're needed.

(emphasis mine)

So if Biden gets no votes from Sanders supporters, according to Biden, this is because he didn't earn them.
Title: Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
Post by: Skybison on April 08, 2020, 11:50:11 pm
Speaking for myself, I do believe that Bernie voters owe Biden their vote.  Well no, they don't owe Biden, they owe all the people who would die from loss of healthcare, for racism and violence, from potential needless wars like the one Trump almost started with Iran, from rampant climate change etc if Trump gets reelected.

There are perfectly good reasons to be unhappy that Bernie lost, but not voting Biden is voting Trump.  I agree that the number of bernie supporters who didn't vote for Clinton is blown out of proportion, but given how tight US politics is even a small group can tilt the balance threw action/inaction.

"Politicians have to earn votes" doesn't apply when Nazis are on the march and the apocalypse is around the corner.
Title: Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
Post by: dpareja on April 09, 2020, 12:07:46 am
Speaking for myself, I do believe that Bernie voters owe Biden their vote.  Well no, they don't owe Biden, they owe all the people who would die from loss of healthcare, for racism and violence, from potential needless wars like the one Trump almost started with Iran, from rampant climate change etc if Trump gets reelected.

There are perfectly good reasons to be unhappy that Bernie lost, but not voting Biden is voting Trump.  I agree that the number of bernie supporters who didn't vote for Clinton is blown out of proportion, but given how tight US politics is even a small group can tilt the balance threw action/inaction.

"Politicians have to earn votes" doesn't apply when Nazis are on the march and the apocalypse is around the corner.

If I were Joe Biden, I'd get on the phone to Lawrence Lessig, make sure he'd accept, and then campaign on putting him on the Supreme Court.
Title: Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
Post by: Cloud3514 on April 09, 2020, 12:14:35 am
I maintain that it is massively irresponsible to refuse to vote blue because you can't have your preferred candidate. The game sucks, but we have to play it. I don't like it, either.1
Title: Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
Post by: dpareja on April 09, 2020, 12:29:15 am
I maintain that it is massively irresponsible to refuse to vote blue because you can't have your preferred candidate. The game sucks, but we have to play it. I don't like it, either.1

As Lawrence O'Donnell noted, the Democratic Party ignores the Left because the Left always votes for them.

It is not an inherently unreasonable position to say, "If you don't support what I have clearly said I want"--whether this is candidate- or policy-based is not relevant--"why should I support what you want?"

And having had it happen twice in my lifetime (though only once when I was old enough to remember) that vote-splitting between two non-conservative parties handed unbridled power to conservatives, and then seeing this used by the less-principled non-conservative party to snag votes away from the more-principled one (because the former has a much larger hard base than the latter), and now seeing that same party quash a clear recommendation by a Parliamentary committee to have a referendum between our current electoral system and a proportional representation system, because that would obviate all their fearmongering that they use to get votes from swing voters... suffice it to say that I really, really sympathize.

(If you look at Canadian federal elections in 2006, 2008 and 2011, the share of the popular vote among parties getting either 5% or electing one member enjoyed by left-wing parties--Liberals, New Democrats, and Greens in the latter two--went from 50.5% in 2006, to 51.8% in 2008, to 53.9% in 2011. But each time the Conservatives got more seats, winning a majority in 2011. Then a bunch of NDP and Green voters went for the Liberals in 2015 because of Justin Trudeau's promise to bring in proportional representation and the realization, once again, that the NDP and Greens can't crack the Liberals' ~18% base... on which he promptly reneged when Parliament didn't recommend the system he wanted, and used the majority those same voters, who voted for him on the promise of proportional representation, had given him to kill any chance at getting proportional representation. Goddammit I despise the Liberal Party, very nearly as much as I despise the Conservative Party.)
Title: Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
Post by: DarkPhoenix on April 09, 2020, 01:01:22 pm
(If you look at Canadian federal elections in 2006, 2008 and 2011, the share of the popular vote among parties getting either 5% or electing one member enjoyed by left-wing parties--Liberals, New Democrats, and Greens in the latter two--went from 50.5% in 2006, to 51.8% in 2008, to 53.9% in 2011. But each time the Conservatives got more seats, winning a majority in 2011. Then a bunch of NDP and Green voters went for the Liberals in 2015 because of Justin Trudeau's promise to bring in proportional representation and the realization, once again, that the NDP and Greens can't crack the Liberals' ~18% base... on which he promptly reneged when Parliament didn't recommend the system he wanted, and used the majority those same voters, who voted for him on the promise of proportional representation, had given him to kill any chance at getting proportional representation. Goddammit I despise the Liberal Party, very nearly as much as I despise the Conservative Party.)

I voted for the NDP's in the provincial election, but the fact is the NDP's don't pick up votes because when they actually GET a chance to run things, they tend to fuck it up.  Not as bad as the CPoC (it'd be hard to figure out how to fuck up worse than THAT), but enough that they rarely keep any gains they manage to achieve.  Bob Rae alone likely put Ontario out of reach for them for a generation...

And I don't know if you've noticed, but the problem with a lot of people in the Sanders wing in the US is that they have the same views on compromise as the Republican segment do; that it's the worst possible thing you could do.  Just look at their reaction to Warren's plan to get to M4A... The end result is the same as Bernie's, but because it wasn't one huge step, but a series of steps, they screamed that it was selling out...

This temper tantrum over Bernie bowing out is in fact their view on compromise taken to the candidate level; ie, "Give us the candidate WE demand!"...
Title: Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
Post by: niam2023 on April 09, 2020, 03:34:18 pm
"People are willing to listen to what you have to say. You just need to step up and vote---"

"BUT I WANT I WANT I WANT I WANT I WANT WANT WANT WANT WANT!!!"
Title: Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
Post by: SCarpelan on April 09, 2020, 03:59:34 pm
Some statistical information for the non-voter conversation. (https://theintercept.com/2020/04/09/nonvoters-are-not-privileged-they-are-largely-lower-income-non-white-and-dissatisfied-with-the-two-parties/) In 2016, the nonvoters were not privileged liberals. Instead, they were the underprivileged: poor, young, mostly non-whites.

Quote
Almost half of non-voters in the 2016 presidential election were non-white, even though they compose only one-fourth of the voting population. Even more extreme is the data on class: more than half of non-voters — 56% — are quite poor, making less than $30,000, even though that income group constitutes just over one-fourth of the voting population. The people who choose to vote are disproportionately privileged; those who are non-privileged choose disproportionately not to vote.

These non-voters are whom Sanders campaign targeted with some success. If they don't vote for Biden, it's not because they are privileged and petty. It's because they don't trust either party is interested in improving their lives, Sanders's campaign and policies are what brought them to the voting booth in the first place. For the Democratic party to have a future after the baby boomer generation is gone they need to attract these voters and Sanders showed what type of policies might do that.
Title: Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
Post by: DarkPhoenix on April 09, 2020, 04:03:36 pm
"People are willing to listen to what you have to say. You just need to step up and vote---"

"BUT I WANT I WANT I WANT I WANT I WANT WANT WANT WANT WANT!!!"

Yeah, that's my take on most of this as well.  Bernie doesn't compromise.  His base considers that a strength; "He'll keep fighting for what you DESERVE!"

But politics is mainly about compromise.  The problem with the US right now is that the Right refuses to compromise on anything.  I don't think the same attitude coming from the Left helps.

Bernie has trouble breaking out of his 30% base because he won't compromise, and because his surrogates and supporters won't compromise, and to a lot of people on the outside, that looks a lot like dismissing their concerns...

Some statistical information for the non-voter conversation. (https://theintercept.com/2020/04/09/nonvoters-are-not-privileged-they-are-largely-lower-income-non-white-and-dissatisfied-with-the-two-parties/) In 2016, the nonvoters were not privileged liberals. Instead, they were the underprivileged: poor, young, mostly non-whites.

Quote
Almost half of non-voters in the 2016 presidential election were non-white, even though they compose only one-fourth of the voting population. Even more extreme is the data on class: more than half of non-voters — 56% — are quite poor, making less than $30,000, even though that income group constitutes just over one-fourth of the voting population. The people who choose to vote are disproportionately privileged; those who are non-privileged choose disproportionately not to vote.

These non-voters are whom Sanders campaign targeted with some success. If they don't vote for Biden, it's not because they are privileged and petty. It's because they don't trust either party is interested in improving their lives, Sanders's campaign and policies are what brought them to the voting booth in the first place. For the Democratic party to have a future after the baby boomer generation is gone they need to attract these voters and Sanders showed what type of policies might do that.

I'd say a good portion of that is voter suppression; it works really well on the poor, and we know the Repubs specifically target the black and Latino communities.
Title: Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
Post by: niam2023 on April 09, 2020, 04:18:25 pm
There's that portion of the left, mostly the dirtbag left and the "tumblr" left that seems to think they're everyone.

I've legit seen someone pressed on how they could be "everyone" respond with "But I've seen mostly Pro-Bernie Tumblr accounts! We have to represent most of the country."

It's like, do they think Tumblr represents the entirety of the USA?

Then there was the person who said they shouldn't even bother voting any more, because voting is "neocolonialist patriarchal colonizer power structures made to marginalize us".
Title: Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
Post by: SCarpelan on April 09, 2020, 04:28:40 pm
Some statistical information for the non-voter conversation. (https://theintercept.com/2020/04/09/nonvoters-are-not-privileged-they-are-largely-lower-income-non-white-and-dissatisfied-with-the-two-parties/) In 2016, the nonvoters were not privileged liberals. Instead, they were the underprivileged: poor, young, mostly non-whites.

Quote
Almost half of non-voters in the 2016 presidential election were non-white, even though they compose only one-fourth of the voting population. Even more extreme is the data on class: more than half of non-voters — 56% — are quite poor, making less than $30,000, even though that income group constitutes just over one-fourth of the voting population. The people who choose to vote are disproportionately privileged; those who are non-privileged choose disproportionately not to vote.

These non-voters are whom Sanders campaign targeted with some success. If they don't vote for Biden, it's not because they are privileged and petty. It's because they don't trust either party is interested in improving their lives, Sanders's campaign and policies are what brought them to the voting booth in the first place. For the Democratic party to have a future after the baby boomer generation is gone they need to attract these voters and Sanders showed what type of policies might do that.

I'd say a good portion of that is voter suppression; it works really well on the poor, and we know the Repubs specifically target the black and Latino communities.

From the same article:

Quote
A separate Pew survey, in 2017, of people who are not registered to vote found exactly the opposite: that people who refrain from participating in the electoral process largely do so because they are dissatisfied with the choices or believe voting will not change their lives. As Pew put it: “The unregistered were more likely to say they do not vote because they dislike politics or believe voting will not make a difference, while people who are registered but vote infrequently say they do not vote more often because they are not informed enough about the candidates or issues.”

Indeed, that Pew survey of unregistered voters found that the most common cause for not registering is that they do not want to vote, and the most common reasons have nothing to do with voter suppression and everything to do with beliefs about the worthlessness of the elections. As Pew put it, “forty-four percent of eligible unregistered individuals say they do not want to vote,” while “25 percent say they are unregistered because they have not been inspired by a candidate or issue.”

Voter suppression is an issue and influences those elections where there are a lot of inspired minority voters, this admittedly underplays that part. The older minority voters are the ones who are motivated and whom the voter suppression hurts the most. They are also the ones who have gathered more wealth than the younger generations - although this is relative, their wealth is still a lot less than white people of the same age. The younger,  most underprivileged voters aren't inspired at all to even try to vote.

Again, the explicit strategy of Sanders campaign was to bring them to the polls and they did have some success even in the primary where it is much more difficult to motivate voters compared to the general election.

-----

(click to show/hide)

This is the type of discourse I see among the activist left. Dissecting what the Sanders campaign did right and what they did wrong, reminding people that even if the campaign was successful it would have only been one small step in the leftist political project, not the ultimate goal. This is the type of people who were at the ideological core of the campaign. People who understand that the actual political goals are decades in the future and activism takes place both in the electoral sphere and outside it.
Title: Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
Post by: dpareja on April 09, 2020, 04:38:45 pm
(If you look at Canadian federal elections in 2006, 2008 and 2011, the share of the popular vote among parties getting either 5% or electing one member enjoyed by left-wing parties--Liberals, New Democrats, and Greens in the latter two--went from 50.5% in 2006, to 51.8% in 2008, to 53.9% in 2011. But each time the Conservatives got more seats, winning a majority in 2011. Then a bunch of NDP and Green voters went for the Liberals in 2015 because of Justin Trudeau's promise to bring in proportional representation and the realization, once again, that the NDP and Greens can't crack the Liberals' ~18% base... on which he promptly reneged when Parliament didn't recommend the system he wanted, and used the majority those same voters, who voted for him on the promise of proportional representation, had given him to kill any chance at getting proportional representation. Goddammit I despise the Liberal Party, very nearly as much as I despise the Conservative Party.)

I voted for the NDP's in the provincial election, but the fact is the NDP's don't pick up votes because when they actually GET a chance to run things, they tend to fuck it up.  Not as bad as the CPoC (it'd be hard to figure out how to fuck up worse than THAT), but enough that they rarely keep any gains they manage to achieve.  Bob Rae alone likely put Ontario out of reach for them for a generation...

And I don't know if you've noticed, but the problem with a lot of people in the Sanders wing in the US is that they have the same views on compromise as the Republican segment do; that it's the worst possible thing you could do.  Just look at their reaction to Warren's plan to get to M4A... The end result is the same as Bernie's, but because it wasn't one huge step, but a series of steps, they screamed that it was selling out...

This temper tantrum over Bernie bowing out is in fact their view on compromise taken to the candidate level; ie, "Give us the candidate WE demand!"...

My criticism was not of Liberal voters--I try never to criticize voters for voting how they voted (or didn't vote), whatever I may think of their reasons for doing so. My criticism was of the Liberal Party and their betrayal of their promise of electoral reform.

As for conservatives being uncompromising... if the Left will compromise and the Right will not, then you either stick with the status quo or move in a conservative direction. The Left loses in this scenario, and hence many have concluded that the only approach to get their preferred policies enacted is to be similarly uncompromising.

EDIT: I may elaborate later; I don't have time to do so at the moment.
Title: Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
Post by: DarkPhoenix on April 09, 2020, 06:48:54 pm
(If you look at Canadian federal elections in 2006, 2008 and 2011, the share of the popular vote among parties getting either 5% or electing one member enjoyed by left-wing parties--Liberals, New Democrats, and Greens in the latter two--went from 50.5% in 2006, to 51.8% in 2008, to 53.9% in 2011. But each time the Conservatives got more seats, winning a majority in 2011. Then a bunch of NDP and Green voters went for the Liberals in 2015 because of Justin Trudeau's promise to bring in proportional representation and the realization, once again, that the NDP and Greens can't crack the Liberals' ~18% base... on which he promptly reneged when Parliament didn't recommend the system he wanted, and used the majority those same voters, who voted for him on the promise of proportional representation, had given him to kill any chance at getting proportional representation. Goddammit I despise the Liberal Party, very nearly as much as I despise the Conservative Party.)

I voted for the NDP's in the provincial election, but the fact is the NDP's don't pick up votes because when they actually GET a chance to run things, they tend to fuck it up.  Not as bad as the CPoC (it'd be hard to figure out how to fuck up worse than THAT), but enough that they rarely keep any gains they manage to achieve.  Bob Rae alone likely put Ontario out of reach for them for a generation...

And I don't know if you've noticed, but the problem with a lot of people in the Sanders wing in the US is that they have the same views on compromise as the Republican segment do; that it's the worst possible thing you could do.  Just look at their reaction to Warren's plan to get to M4A... The end result is the same as Bernie's, but because it wasn't one huge step, but a series of steps, they screamed that it was selling out...

This temper tantrum over Bernie bowing out is in fact their view on compromise taken to the candidate level; ie, "Give us the candidate WE demand!"...

My criticism was not of Liberal voters--I try never to criticize voters for voting how they voted (or didn't vote), whatever I may think of their reasons for doing so. My criticism was of the Liberal Party and their betrayal of their promise of electoral reform.

As for conservatives being uncompromising... if the Left will compromise and the Right will not, then you either stick with the status quo or move in a conservative direction. The Left loses in this scenario, and hence many have concluded that the only approach to get their preferred policies enacted is to be similarly uncompromising.

EDIT: I may elaborate later; I don't have time to do so at the moment.

I was actually going to say that the Left shouldn't compromise with the Right when the Right refuses to compromise.  But when it comes to the Bernie guys, they reject compromise with the people who WANT to work with them.  Elizabeth Warren is a great example; they called her a snake and a sellout because she proposed taking steps to M4A rather than trying to jump to it immediately...
Title: Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
Post by: Cloud3514 on April 09, 2020, 09:23:22 pm
Sanders' press secretary, almost two days after he's conceded, is still on Twitter actively campaigning against Joe Biden, which helps exactly one person: Donald Trump. This is EXACTLY what Phoenix is talking about. Instead of taking wins where they can and making steps towards the rest, if they can't have EVERYTHING, they'd rather have nothing.
Title: Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
Post by: niam2023 on April 09, 2020, 09:50:17 pm
Is that the crazy Twitter woman people were talking about a while back?
Title: Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
Post by: DarkPhoenix on April 10, 2020, 12:10:42 am
Sanders' press secretary, almost two days after he's conceded, is still on Twitter actively campaigning against Joe Biden, which helps exactly one person: Donald Trump. This is EXACTLY what Phoenix is talking about. Instead of taking wins where they can and making steps towards the rest, if they can't have EVERYTHING, they'd rather have nothing.

Briahna Joy Gray, the woman who boasted about voting for Jill Stein in the last election...

I hear that David Sirota (who was also part of Bernie's team) is also going nuts with the anti-Biden campaigning.  This is why you don't hire people for your campaign who are only good at mud-slinging...
Title: Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
Post by: Cloud3514 on April 10, 2020, 12:48:57 am
It absolutely floors me that Sanders learned NOTHING from 2016. He has the exact same problems this year. His supporters are noticeably more vitriolic, he completely failed to expand his base, he still acts like even the most reasonable and logical compromise is an inexcusable sign of weakness, he still kept attacking his primary opponents LONG after he should have pivoted to actively campaigning against Trump, he still keeps hiring people that worship him like a holy savior to work for him. It reeks of him blaming everything but himself for his own failings.
Title: Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
Post by: Vanto on April 10, 2020, 05:59:55 pm
I think that unless the universalist left and the identitarian left learn to work together, the Democrats will keep on nominating Clinton Democrat "status quo" candidates for POTUS. They simply can't afford to be at each other's throats if they really want to put their preferred candidates in the Oval Office.
Title: Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
Post by: Kanzenkankaku on April 11, 2020, 05:22:31 am
"People are willing to listen to what you have to say. You just need to step up and vote---"

"BUT I WANT I WANT I WANT I WANT I WANT WANT WANT WANT WANT!!!"

Yeah, that's my take on most of this as well.  Bernie doesn't compromise.  His base considers that a strength; "He'll keep fighting for what you DESERVE!"

But politics is mainly about compromise.  The problem with the US right now is that the Right refuses to compromise on anything.  I don't think the same attitude coming from the Left helps.

Bernie has trouble breaking out of his 30% base because he won't compromise, and because his surrogates and supporters won't compromise, and to a lot of people on the outside, that looks a lot like dismissing their concerns...

Some statistical information for the non-voter conversation. (https://theintercept.com/2020/04/09/nonvoters-are-not-privileged-they-are-largely-lower-income-non-white-and-dissatisfied-with-the-two-parties/) In 2016, the nonvoters were not privileged liberals. Instead, they were the underprivileged: poor, young, mostly non-whites.

Quote
Almost half of non-voters in the 2016 presidential election were non-white, even though they compose only one-fourth of the voting population. Even more extreme is the data on class: more than half of non-voters — 56% — are quite poor, making less than $30,000, even though that income group constitutes just over one-fourth of the voting population. The people who choose to vote are disproportionately privileged; those who are non-privileged choose disproportionately not to vote.

These non-voters are whom Sanders campaign targeted with some success. If they don't vote for Biden, it's not because they are privileged and petty. It's because they don't trust either party is interested in improving their lives, Sanders's campaign and policies are what brought them to the voting booth in the first place. For the Democratic party to have a future after the baby boomer generation is gone they need to attract these voters and Sanders showed what type of policies might do that.

I'd say a good portion of that is voter suppression; it works really well on the poor, and we know the Repubs specifically target the black and Latino communities.

Bernie doesn't compromise? What world do you live in?
https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/2020-election/bernie-sanders-image-left-wing-purist-belied-record-compromise-n1143956
He compromises all the time?

https://www.pon.harvard.edu/daily/dealing-with-difficult-people-daily/bernie-sanders-keeps-his-pragmatism-under-wraps/
He appears unyielding because he's fighting to push people more in his direction, because he wants to bring up doing whats best for people. But when it comes down to it and he needs to compromise, he does exactly that.

The only concerns being roundly dismissed at the moment are lefties. Who don't exactly have the institutional power to "purity test" Biden or any of his own godawful surrogates the same way certain media outlets have to tar and paint Bernie's surrogates and supporters as bad.
Title: Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
Post by: Askold on April 13, 2020, 05:27:18 am
Someone on Reddit complained about how many Bernie Sanders fansubs are filled with Trump supporters pretending to be Bernie Bros and trying to make Bernie supporters to either vote for Trump or at least to not to vote for Biden.

Someone comforted him by saying "Do not worry, his online base doesnt vote anyway."
Title: Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
Post by: Vanto on April 14, 2020, 04:20:12 pm
I've heard speculation that the plan is for Biden to pick Hillary as his running mate, then resign shortly after he wins the election. We should take this prediction with a massive grain of salt.

Speaking of, who would you like to see as Biden's running mate?
Title: Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
Post by: dpareja on April 14, 2020, 04:31:49 pm
Nina Turner.

Failing her, Barbara Lee.

But after that, I suspect Gretchen Whitmer.
Title: Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
Post by: lord gibbon on April 14, 2020, 05:48:07 pm
Elizabeth Warren would probably be the best choice. She's (relatively) young, and could really get progressives on board more than, say, Harris.
Title: Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
Post by: Eiki-mun on April 14, 2020, 05:56:58 pm
Amy Klobuchar.
Title: Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
Post by: dpareja on April 14, 2020, 06:31:38 pm
Elizabeth Warren would probably be the best choice. She's (relatively) young, and could really get progressives on board more than, say, Harris.

Given the events of this election, Warren is politically dead to a large chunk of the left. Lee would stand a better chance.
Title: Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
Post by: Id82 on April 14, 2020, 06:51:10 pm
Gretchen Whitmer would be the best choice. She's Governor, so she already has executive experience. She's Governor of Michigan which will be a highly contested state this coming election, so having someone from a rust belt state would be beneficial to that area, and right now her popularity is up due to the pandemic.
Title: Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
Post by: niam2023 on April 14, 2020, 07:33:23 pm
I've heard speculation that the plan is for Biden to pick Hillary as his running mate, then resign shortly after he wins the election. We should take this prediction with a massive grain of salt.

Speaking of, who would you like to see as Biden's running mate?

Whoever you heard that from is pants on head, huffing paint fumes insane.
Title: Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
Post by: dpareja on April 14, 2020, 08:14:03 pm
I've heard speculation that the plan is for Biden to pick Hillary as his running mate, then resign shortly after he wins the election. We should take this prediction with a massive grain of salt.

Speaking of, who would you like to see as Biden's running mate?

Whoever you heard that from is pants on head, huffing paint fumes insane.

I think we've finally found something on which we agree here, niam.
Title: Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
Post by: ironbite on April 15, 2020, 10:24:18 am
Stacy Abrams is my pick.

Ironbite-I'd leave the ladies of the Senate alone personally.
Title: Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
Post by: DarkPhoenix on April 15, 2020, 11:40:12 am
So, in the last few days, Barack Obama, Bernie Sanders and Elizabeth Warren have all endorsed Joe Biden as President.  So it appears the Dem Party is uniting behind him...

Unfortunately, THAT portion of Bernie fans (you know the ones) have apparently decided that this is a bridge too far; they're now calling Bernie a traitor and Warren a snake (still), and they're uniting behind, of all people, Briahna Joy Gray, who's mad because Bernie canned her...
Title: Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
Post by: ironbite on April 15, 2020, 12:51:41 pm
Ahh yes.  Let's unite around the pedophile.

Ironbite-GOOD TAKE DIRTBAG LEFT!
Title: Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
Post by: dpareja on April 15, 2020, 01:34:56 pm
Ahh yes.  Let's unite around the pedophile.

Ironbite-GOOD TAKE DIRTBAG LEFT!

Briahna Joy Gray is a pedophile? Source?

Or did you mean someone else?
Title: Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
Post by: ironbite on April 15, 2020, 02:58:51 pm
Apparently one of the reasons she was let go by Bernie was she supported a pedo.  Or is a pedo.  I never got a straight answer.  Regardless, she's not exactly Sander's favorite person as he refereed to her as his FORMER press secretary.

Ironbite-with a massive emphasis on Former
Title: Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
Post by: dpareja on April 15, 2020, 03:46:37 pm
Apparently one of the reasons she was let go by Bernie was she supported a pedo.  Or is a pedo.  I never got a straight answer.  Regardless, she's not exactly Sander's favorite person as he refereed to her as his FORMER press secretary.

Ironbite-with a massive emphasis on Former

I can't find a source on that anywhere. I can see other reasons why Sanders would let her go, but on that one specifically I can't find anything.

EDIT: I suspect it's far more the case that since Sanders wants to throw the weight of his organization behind Biden's bid for the presidency; Joy Gray refuses to support Biden; hence Joy Gray is now a hindrance to Sanders' aims.
Title: Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
Post by: niam2023 on April 15, 2020, 04:16:54 pm
Quote
Believe it or not, we’re the majority of the country which is why both the Republicans and the Democrats do ‘their best’ to court our votes...

Found this little tidbit by a Bernie supporter on Tumblr. "Believe it or not we're the majority of the country". And I'm sure if they had to explain why Bernie's lost twice now, they'll come up with a laundry list of excuses why they don't vote.
Title: Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
Post by: Cloud3514 on April 15, 2020, 04:21:43 pm
I mean, when your primary credential for being part of a campaign is that you start fights with anyone who doesn't tow the line on Twitter, you're a hindrance in the first place. Words cannot fairly describe just how awful of a hire Joy Gray was.
Title: Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
Post by: DarkPhoenix on April 27, 2020, 11:29:28 am
https://twitter.com/ShahidForChange/status/1254291022235881472

Can I just facepalm?  This is NOT helping, and it's coming from a Dem candidate for Congress, which makes it worse...
Title: Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
Post by: Cloud3514 on April 27, 2020, 12:03:33 pm
Ah, fuck, that guy. The guy who's trying to primary Pelosi by appealing to the Bernie or Busters who think she's just as right wing as the Republicans. I can't say I'm surprised that he's jumping on the #DropOutBiden train.

Also, after four years of people saying "hey, maybe we shouldn't armchair diagnose Trump with mental illness," where the hell are those people pointing out how many people have been armchair diagnosing Biden?
Title: Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
Post by: DarkPhoenix on April 27, 2020, 01:03:59 pm
Ah, fuck, that guy. The guy who's trying to primary Pelosi by appealing to the Bernie or Busters who think she's just as right wing as the Republicans. I can't say I'm surprised that he's jumping on the #DropOutBiden train.

Also, after four years of people saying "hey, maybe we shouldn't armchair diagnose Trump with mental illness," where the hell are those people pointing out  how many people have been armchair diagnosing Biden?

And I see support from the usual suspects; Briahna Joy Gray, David Sirota, Shaun King, Peter Daou and of course, fucking Susan Sarandon.  Haven't you done enough damage yet, Susan?  Still think if Hilary was President things would be much worse?

And I'm sorry, but at this point I see that the source is the Intercept and react the same way as I do when I see the source is Fox News or Breitbart...
Title: Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
Post by: ironbite on April 27, 2020, 03:14:32 pm
Dems just cancelled the New York Primary.

Ironbite-time for the Bernie Bros Outrage Machine to start up but is anyone really paying attention to the Democrat Primary?
Title: Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
Post by: DarkPhoenix on April 27, 2020, 06:42:55 pm
Dems just cancelled the New York Primary.

Ironbite-time for the Bernie Bros Outrage Machine to start up but is anyone really paying attention to the Democrat Primary?

No, they seem to be determined to try and use this Tara Reade thing to push Biden into stepping down, on the assumption that Bernie then wins by default... You know, rather than the hated DNC picking a replacement, which is what WOULD happen here if they forced Biden out...
Title: Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
Post by: Cloud3514 on April 27, 2020, 09:39:57 pm
God, if only they would realize that no one is asking them to actively endorse Biden or even like him. I'm not happy about him, either, but this is the hand we've been dealt.
Title: Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
Post by: niam2023 on April 27, 2020, 10:26:52 pm
"BUH BUH BUH I WANN MUH BEEEEEEEEERNNNNNNNIIIIIIIIIEEEEEEEEEEE! I MADE TUMBLR POSTS! THAT'S CAMPAIGNING!!"

...no, seriously, that's a thing. People honestly think updating their Tumblrs counts as campaigning.
Title: Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
Post by: dpareja on April 28, 2020, 03:11:51 am
Hey remember when that same reporter broke a small little story involving a Palo Alto and Stanford professor and a then-judge on the DC Circuit Court?

Funny how many of the people who supported Dr. Ford are now dismissing Ms. Reade.
Title: Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
Post by: Cloud3514 on April 28, 2020, 04:00:29 am
Don't get me wrong. Voting for Biden is ENTIRELY a strategic move. Biden is a creep, at best and has no business running for President. But if it's between this asshole and letting fascism continue to run America, then I'm fucking sucking it up and voting for Biden. Like I said, I'm not asking people to actively endorse Biden, or even like him, I'm asking them to do their part to fight fascism.
Title: Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
Post by: Vanto on April 28, 2020, 10:44:01 am
Don't get me wrong. Voting for Biden is ENTIRELY a strategic move. Biden is a creep, at best and has no business running for President. But if it's between this asshole and letting fascism continue to run America, then I'm fucking sucking it up and voting for Biden. Like I said, I'm not asking people to actively endorse Biden, or even like him, I'm asking them to do their part to fight fascism.

I don't like Trump either, but do you honestly believe fascism is running America? If you do, then would you mind explaining why people like Nancy Pelosi, Adam Schiff, John Oliver, Mitt Romney, AOC, Stephen Colbert, etc. haven't been locked up or murdered yet?
Title: Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
Post by: Id82 on April 28, 2020, 12:58:45 pm
Trump isn't a fascist but he definitely wants to be authoritarian because he's a malignant narcissist who should have no business being anywhere near this high of a position of government.. I think he envies Putin, Xi and Kim Jong Un, and has repeatedly called them strong leaders even though they are terrible. Luckily our constitution prevents that from happening, but he has tried. Saying he has the authority to open up state governments, firing people who disagree with him or make him look bad. Surrounding himself with yes men. Appointing unqualified vapid family members to important cabinet positions. Using Fox news as a propaganda station that repeats what Donald Trump says as gospel. "Joking" numerous times that he wants to run for a third, fourth or fifth term. Not to mention has done shady illegal shit like propositioning a foreign government to interfere in our election with blackmail, admitting it and then denying it, and only getting away with it because his own party fears it's electorate.
If he could he would.
 
Title: Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
Post by: ironbite on April 28, 2020, 03:24:39 pm
Hey remember when that same reporter broke a small little story involving a Palo Alto and Stanford professor and a then-judge on the DC Circuit Court?

Funny how many of the people who supported Dr. Ford are now dismissing Ms. Reade.


The problem with Ms. Reade's accusations is there's a mountain of evidence that she switched to Bernie Sanders just before throwing this out into the world.  Where was she in 08 or 12 when Biden was running for President/running  for reelection?  Why now?  Dr. Ford came out because Kavanauah needed to be stopped and everyone was throwing everything at him because he's so unqualified.  Then there's the fact that the Orange Piss Pot has 60+ accusers and nobody seems to bat an eye at that.  Really this is what hand we've been dealt with right now.

Ironbite-I don't want to vote for Biden, but here we are.
Title: Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
Post by: dpareja on April 28, 2020, 04:40:40 pm
She switched to Sanders from, I believe, Warren, once Warren dropped out and Sanders was the only other candidate in the race besides Biden. Did you expect her to support someone whom she believes sexually assaulted her?

And yes, of course Trump has dozens of accusers. The thing is, Republicans don't give a shit about that as long as he keeps putting unqualified clowns on the federal bench.

Also, a lot of Democrats dismiss the accusations against Bill Clinton (even now, once he's been out of public life for two decades) and there's reason to think that (like Trump) he may well have engaged in pedophilia given that we know he was an associate of Jeffrey Epstein and flew on the "Lolita Express".
Title: Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
Post by: DarkPhoenix on April 28, 2020, 11:28:17 pm
Hey remember when that same reporter broke a small little story involving a Palo Alto and Stanford professor and a then-judge on the DC Circuit Court?

Funny how many of the people who supported Dr. Ford are now dismissing Ms. Reade.


The problem with Ms. Reade's accusations is there's a mountain of evidence that she switched to Bernie Sanders just before throwing this out into the world.  Where was she in 08 or 12 when Biden was running for President/running  for reelection?  Why now?  Dr. Ford came out because Kavanauah needed to be stopped and everyone was throwing everything at him because he's so unqualified.  Then there's the fact that the Orange Piss Pot has 60+ accusers and nobody seems to bat an eye at that.  Really this is what hand we've been dealt with right now.

Ironbite-I don't want to vote for Biden, but here we are.

Not just that; add on her blatant Putin-ass-kissing (seriously, look up some of it; it's insane), the fact that her story has changed again and again, and also the big thing; no one does what Tara is accusing Joe Biden of once and then stops.  She's now claiming that he pinned her to the wall and stuck his fingers under her dress, and when she refused to allow him, he had her fired.  Those are the actions of a sexual predator, and if so, where are the other accusers?

I know Bernie guys are pointing to "all the women Joe has touched over the years", but not one of them is taking this as far as Tara Reade is.  Plus her witnesses are... problematic.

I look at the situation this way; if there was really something there, something that might be an angle to take down Joe, don't you think the Republicans would be all over it rather than the Hunder Biden stuff?  Yet most of the groups pushing it are Bernie groups.  And we KNOW the Republicans don't give a rat's ass about being hypocritical.
Title: Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
Post by: niam2023 on April 28, 2020, 11:55:25 pm
Yeah, the Repubs are not the type to hold back on this sort of thing...if they knew there was truth to it or something close enough to be exploitable. But no, this is being pushed by the Bernie Club. Who want to make their guy the Nominee, regardless what he has to say on the matter himself. Bernie conceded as he should have.
Title: Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
Post by: dpareja on April 29, 2020, 02:02:51 am
Quote
I now look forward to three months of Biden supporters insisting that a vote for Amash is a vote for Trump and three months of Trump supporters insisting that a vote for Amash is a vote for Biden.
Title: Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
Post by: Cloud3514 on April 29, 2020, 03:01:03 am
Amash is likely going to pull more voters from Trump than he is from Biden because, you know, fucking Libertarian Party. So... for once voting third party isn't a completely black and white thing. That said, while I have some level of respect for Amash for being the only Republican (yes, I know he was kicked out of the party) in Congress willing to stand up against Trump, he is NOT a justifiable alternative to voting for Biden. Though I'm not exactly complaining if he leaks votes away from Trump.
Title: Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
Post by: DarkPhoenix on May 01, 2020, 03:19:50 pm
I'm just going to go ahead and toss this here: https://ascammersnightmareisjustice.blogspot.com/2020/04/tara-reade-legacy-of-lies-part-one.html

Probably worth reading when it comes to Tara Reade and how honest you can trust her to be, because she appears to lie as often as Captain Clorox himself...

Not to mention run GoFundMe scams and defrauding her friends.  Oh, and accusing pretty much every man she's ever worked with of sexual harassment at some point...
Title: Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
Post by: dpareja on May 01, 2020, 04:48:45 pm
Ms. Reade may well be completely full of shit.

The problem is that many of the people who screamed "BELIEVE WOMEN" when it came to Dr. Ford's allegations against then-Judge Kavanaugh are now calling into question Ms. Reade's allegations against former Vice President Biden, and did so almost immediately, before any serious vetting of Ms. Reade's claims had occurred.

Furthermore, a major group set up to help victims of sexual harassment with regards to #MeToo declined to give legal aid to Ms. Reade in her case, with the stated reason not being that her accusations were baseless (which, again, they may well be) but that doing so would put their tax status in legal jeopardy since her claims were against a Presidential candidate, which is a decidedly more dubious rationale.

So even if Ms. Reade is lying through her teeth about these claims, the way in which the people who were adamant that Dr. Ford be believed were immediately apathetic, if not hostile, to Ms. Reade sure as hell makes it look like they were just playing partisan games with #MeToo and "BELIEVE WOMEN" and didn't actually mean it.

If your standard changes depending on the situation--if you believe those women who accuse men you don't like but disbelieve women who accuse men you do like, for instance--you don't actually have a standard.

EDIT: The same can be said of people who point to the accusations of sexual assault against Donald Trump while ignoring those against Bill Clinton... and vice versa, of course.
Title: Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
Post by: niam2023 on May 01, 2020, 04:58:58 pm
Oh please.

So we're all horrible standard-less monsters for not automatically believing her when we went ahead and believed others? This is honestly kind of pathetic of you. It seems like even as the allegations break down and she's revealed to be a liar, you still want to use this whole set of circumstances to wring at least some benefit even if it's just "I GOTCHA I GOTCHA GOTCHA GOTCHA YOU ARE NOT ETHICAL!!"

The only people still holding to this are bitter Bernie-stans. And its becoming more and more obvious why that's the case.

So rare it is indeed that populists deal in reality.
Title: Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
Post by: Id82 on May 01, 2020, 06:01:54 pm
How about everyone accepts that both candidates are touchy feely perverts and that we can't do anything about the choices we have now and just focus on policy?
Title: Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
Post by: DarkPhoenix on May 01, 2020, 09:06:17 pm
Ms. Reade may well be completely full of shit.

The problem is that many of the people who screamed "BELIEVE WOMEN" when it came to Dr. Ford's allegations against then-Judge Kavanaugh are now calling into question Ms. Reade's allegations against former Vice President Biden, and did so almost immediately, before any serious vetting of Ms. Reade's claims had occurred.

Furthermore, a major group set up to help victims of sexual harassment with regards to #MeToo declined to give legal aid to Ms. Reade in her case, with the stated reason not being that her accusations were baseless (which, again, they may well be) but that doing so would put their tax status in legal jeopardy since her claims were against a Presidential candidate, which is a decidedly more dubious rationale.

So even if Ms. Reade is lying through her teeth about these claims, the way in which the people who were adamant that Dr. Ford be believed were immediately apathetic, if not hostile, to Ms. Reade sure as hell makes it look like they were just playing partisan games with #MeToo and "BELIEVE WOMEN" and didn't actually mean it.

If your standard changes depending on the situation--if you believe those women who accuse men you don't like but disbelieve women who accuse men you do like, for instance--you don't actually have a standard.

EDIT: The same can be said of people who point to the accusations of sexual assault against Donald Trump while ignoring those against Bill Clinton... and vice versa, of course.

I can't believe I have to say this here, but... With the exception of an outnumbered set of wackos with big mouths, the point of #MeToo wasn't "You should always believe all women, no matter what!", it was "You shouldn't automatically assume the woman is lying to protect the powerful man!"

The argument isn't "Always believe one side!", it's "Let's actually investigate all of these claims before we jump to conclusions".  The only ones who insist that one side or the other has to be believed, no matter what, are the far sides of both political spectrums...
Title: Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
Post by: niam2023 on May 01, 2020, 09:36:09 pm
Again, the only people hanging on to this are the hardcore Bernie fans and the most desperate anchors on Fox News.

So, yeah, it's safe to say that only far ends of the political spectrum really take this seriously.
Title: Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
Post by: dpareja on May 01, 2020, 10:09:47 pm
...an outnumbered set of wackos with big mouths...

The problem is that this set does exist, and because they have big mouths, they get more attention than their numbers would merit. Therefore their actions have an outsized impact on the perception of the #MeToo movement among the general public and, to the extent that their actions reflect negatively on #MeToo, harm #MeToo.

I'm perfectly happy to concede that Ms. Reade is likely full of shit.

EDIT: https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/tara-reades-allegations-put-establishment-democrats-in-a-bind-believe-women-or-back-the-nominee/

FiveThirtyEight (not exactly Sanders-friendly in its editorial content from what I've seen) making something of a similar point.

https://thehill.com/homenews/house/495538-top-house-democrat-tara-reade-allegation-against-biden-needs-to-be

The House Democratic Caucus chair saying that Ms. Reade's claims need to be "investigated seriously".
Title: Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
Post by: ironbite on May 03, 2020, 07:16:30 pm
Yes.  It totally should be investigated seriously.  Just like the allegations against the Orange Piss Pot should be investigated seriously.  But guess which ones will be used by the media to torpedo who's career.

Ironbite-because our media is in it for ratings, not journalism.
Title: Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
Post by: dpareja on May 04, 2020, 11:13:03 am
https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/us-election-trump-biden-amash-1.5552740

A take on whether a Justin Amash candidacy would be a spoiler--and if so, for whom.
Title: Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
Post by: Id82 on May 04, 2020, 06:52:47 pm
I guarantee three days before the election after it's beaten into submission during the whole campaign that Biden might have sexually assaulted a girl that the FBI is opening a case to possibly indict Biden for sexual assault allegations which will just push enough fence sitting voters to go for Trump like they did with Hilary.
Title: Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
Post by: Vanto on May 15, 2020, 11:06:19 pm
A thought occurs to me: if Biden wants to bring back the Obama-era Title IX policies, I'm sure he wouldn't mind being tried under the standards he champions.
Title: Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
Post by: ironbite on May 16, 2020, 07:06:06 pm
Bring us a crime he committed to be tried under then.

Ironbite-Tara Reade ain't it kemosabe.
Title: Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
Post by: Cloud3514 on May 16, 2020, 07:43:19 pm
So Amash has already dropped. Methinks his plan was to bleed voters from Trump and dropped when he realized there was a chance he was more likely to spoil Biden.

Personally speaking, I'm not entirely convinced that he would have helped Trump win, but I am relieved that we don't have to find out.
Title: Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
Post by: niam2023 on May 16, 2020, 10:02:39 pm
Tara Reade gets more and more discredited as the days go on.
Title: Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
Post by: dpareja on May 17, 2020, 12:48:00 am
I suspect that anyone who would have voted for Amash most likely falls into the "wouldn't have voted were he not running" camp anyway.
Title: Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
Post by: DarkPhoenix on May 17, 2020, 01:22:26 pm
Tara Reade gets more and more discredited as the days go on.

https://www.politico.com/news/2020/05/15/tara-reade-left-trail-of-aggrieved-acquaintances-260771

Quote
‘Manipulative, deceitful, user’: Tara Reade left a trail of aggrieved acquaintances
A number of those who crossed paths with Biden’s accuser say they remember two things: She spoke favorably about her time working for Biden, and she left them feeling duped.

Harriet Wrye did a double take the first time she saw Tara Reade on television lodging sexual assault allegations against Joe Biden.

“Jim, that’s Tara,” the 79-year-old author and psychologist called out to her husband, “but she has a different name.”

Wrye and her husband knew Reade as Tara McCabe, the woman who had rented a yurt on their 12-acre California property and tended to the couple’s horses — and her own — for about 10 months beginning in 2017. They were well-acquainted with their former tenant, who frequently knocked on the door of their home seeking emotional support, asking for financial help or forgiveness for late rent payments, which they granted.

“I would sit down and talk to her and try to be encouraging and supportive,” said Wrye, who noted Reade “had heart and some good qualities.”

“This lack of money was hugely problematic for her, she was always on the ropes in that way.”

Reade had spoken highly of Biden, the former boss who employed her as a staff assistant from late 1992 to August 1993, and never mentioned assault or harassment, Wrye recalls. But what Wrye remembers most is that by the time Reade left their property and moved on, Wrye felt burned.

After her husband suffered a brain injury that forced the couple to sell the property, Wrye said, Reade turned on them.

“She became really difficult,” Wrye said. “She said, ‘You’re going to have to pay me to get me to leave.’”

“She was manipulative,” said Wrye, a self-described feminist and social activist. “She was always saying she was going to get it together, but she couldn’t. And ‘could you help her’?”

...

Reade called Klett in 2019 after first publicly lodging allegations that Biden inappropriately touched her. At the time, Reade did not share details of an assault.

“I felt two things when she contacted me: that she was feeling me out to see if I would represent her pro bono. And there was a sense that she was trying to plant a story with me, so she could later say: ‘I told the story to this attorney I worked with,’” Klett said.

“I support women who have been assaulted. Unfortunately, I cannot support Tara Reade,” she said. “When she first contacted me regarding this issue, she could not provide enough credible information. And since that time the story has evolved in the media. I question her motives.”
Title: Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
Post by: Kanzenkankaku on May 18, 2020, 04:57:14 pm
Amash is likely going to pull more voters from Trump than he is from Biden because, you know, fucking Libertarian Party. So... for once voting third party isn't a completely black and white thing. That said, while I have some level of respect for Amash for being the only Republican (yes, I know he was kicked out of the party) in Congress willing to stand up against Trump, he is NOT a justifiable alternative to voting for Biden. Though I'm not exactly complaining if he leaks votes away from Trump.

For once? It's always been the exact opposite of black and white. Libertarians tend to pull more from republicans, greens tend to pull more from progressive people. But never in any big enough numbers to truly spoil anyone.

Never forget Gore won the popular vote even with Nader's surge. And Bush only won because his brother Jebby boy fucked with the results and 5 partisan hacks on the supreme court decided nothing at all was fucked up or weird about that.
Title: Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
Post by: dpareja on May 18, 2020, 10:52:39 pm
The point Nader makes when someone accuses him of being a spoiler is that all Gore needed to do to win the election was win Tennessee. You know, his home state.
Title: Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
Post by: Cloud3514 on June 10, 2020, 04:59:08 pm
https://www.axios.com/bernie-sanders-defund-police-091387de-e132-458e-b048-b367cb44ce18.html?fbclid=IwAR36GQnn3Bv8EA1peqssSPFms7lbUfkRW4EuR8rar3xsC4HLwWo9ML2wBEg

Curious that I have yet to see any Bernie Bros or Bernie or Busters criticize Bernie for agreeing with Biden almost entirely on police reform. They're both dead wrong on it, but it really would be nice to see them apply the same standards they have for Biden to 78 year old Jesus.
Title: Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
Post by: niam2023 on June 10, 2020, 08:05:41 pm
You're expecting cultists to behave logically?
Title: Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
Post by: Kanzenkankaku on June 13, 2020, 11:16:29 pm
https://www.axios.com/bernie-sanders-defund-police-091387de-e132-458e-b048-b367cb44ce18.html?fbclid=IwAR36GQnn3Bv8EA1peqssSPFms7lbUfkRW4EuR8rar3xsC4HLwWo9ML2wBEg

Curious that I have yet to see any Bernie Bros or Bernie or Busters criticize Bernie for agreeing with Biden almost entirely on police reform. They're both dead wrong on it, but it really would be nice to see them apply the same standards they have for Biden to 78 year old Jesus.

I still follow a few on twitter I met through the Bernie organizing part of that hellsite and I've seen several. I wouldn't jump to conclusions if you don't follow or talk to people in those circles like I do. Theres a lot of them that are mad at Bernie for a lot of things recently, including endorsing Biden at all, which I see as silly because he always endorses the eventual democrat nominee because well... he's a democrat even though he runs as independent when in Vermont. And also he's right that Biden is preferable to Trump.

This vague gesticulation at imagined hypocrisy or silence is embarrassing coming from right wingers equally as much as it is from members of this forum.
Title: Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
Post by: Cloud3514 on June 13, 2020, 11:39:20 pm
Please. (https://twitter.com/EmpressJess777/status/1271992617610420225?s=20) I shouldn't have to point out when I'm making generalizations or using hyperbole. It would be absurd to assume that all Bernie supporters are applying a double standard, but that doesn't make the ones that do any less hypocritical. For my experience, with one exception who conveniently stayed quiet until I posted about it on Facebook, not one of the Bernie supporter friends I have have said anything about it, even after it was directly pointed out to them. And the one that did acknowledge it? She's very much in the "Bernie was the compromise" camp that irks for a number of reasons.

And what do I see Twitter Bernie Bros doing? Latching onto the part where Biden said he wants to put $300 million into funding reforms while happily ignoring that Bernie agrees with him almost entirely on this issue. Which is the same thing they do every time Biden says something. They take his statement out of context to make him look bad. "I would veto Medicare 4 All?" "Aim for the legs?" And these are just the tip of the iceberg.

Yes, there are Bernie supporters who are upset about Bernie for things as simple as even daring to compromise with the Democrats, but like I said, the "Bernie was the compromise" horseshit pisses me off for other reasons.
Title: Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
Post by: Askold on June 14, 2020, 02:56:32 am
I am amazed at the amount of people I see saying something like "I vote for Trump because I heard that Biden did [thing that Trump has also done]."
Title: Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
Post by: dpareja on June 14, 2020, 03:54:34 am
I am amazed at the amount of people I see saying something like "I vote for Trump because I heard that Biden did [thing that Trump has also done]."

Because if the media were to acknowledge that Trump has done said things after saying that Biden did, they'd be accused by Republicans of being "lieberal media" and wanting to "silence conservatives".

Or something like that.
Title: Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
Post by: SCarpelan on June 14, 2020, 06:36:03 am
Yes, there are Bernie supporters who are upset about Bernie for things as simple as even daring to compromise with the Democrats, but like I said, the "Bernie was the compromise" horseshit pisses me off for other reasons.
Why? If you have actual leftist policies regarding the conflict between capital and labor it's a very logical stance. Sanders was a moderate left candidate among centrist/moderate right crowd* in the primary. It's not Sanders who is extreme in his politics (his radicalism is nowadays just rhetorical - "political revolution" etc), it's the American political landscape that has moved to the right. When that happens, what is "common sense" in political world follows along.

*with the exception of Bloomberg who is an outright fascist
Title: Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
Post by: Cloud3514 on June 14, 2020, 03:34:04 pm
Even Noam Chomsky has endorsed Biden (https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/noam-chomskys-advice-palestine-advocates-vote-biden-keep-pressure) because the reality is that Trump MUST be removed and is too dangerous to be allowed to have a second term. I don't believe for a second that Chomsky is happy about it, but he's calling for people act strategically based on a bad option and an absolutely atrocious option.

And that's exactly why it irks me. No one is asking people to like Biden or even actively campaign for him. "Bernie was the compromise" is, ironically, a way to excuse a refusal to compromise. It comes across as saying "well, we can't fix it immediately, no point in trying" while the Trump administration keeps trying to push towards becoming a dictatorship.

Yes, I'm advocating for vote blue no matter who, but that's because vote blue no matter who doesn't mean that the Democrats are all good or right, but because the Republican party has become so fucking corrupt that just about anyone is an improvement.
Title: Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
Post by: dpareja on June 14, 2020, 04:39:44 pm
And the counterargument is that, yes, Biden is better than Trump, but Biden is still sufficiently awful (advocating cutting retirement programs, voting for illegal wars, opposing busing, supporting numerous free trade deals, the 1991 and 1994 crime bills...) that some people cannot, as a matter of conscience, countenance voting for either candidate.

And before you say, "that's half a vote for Trump then", well, a Trump supporter could turn around and say, hey, Trump agrees with you more on trade and passed the First Step Act, not voting for him is half a vote for Biden!

The "half a vote" paradigm only works when you're talking about a voter who is making a special exception in this case not to vote for the Democratic candidate. If their standard was always to vote for candidates with whom they are in sufficient ideological agreement, and that standard was previously satisfied but no longer is with Biden, it doesn't apply.
Title: Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
Post by: Cloud3514 on June 14, 2020, 05:01:54 pm
I'm not going to waste my time trying to explain why some of the things you've brought up without context or modern perspective are reductionist because that's beside the point and there's no way I'm going to be able to convince you that Biden's platform is more progressive than you give it credit for because, well, it's really not by much. His platform is mostly center left positions that would make good first steps but are very much not solutions in and of themselves with some asinine center right positions peppered in.

Now, I've misspoken on the meat of your argument before, so let me just make it as clear as possible: Abstaining or voting third party is not actively helping Trump. Spite voting for Trump does, but obviously that's an entirely different action (also, I assume way fewer people will spite vote for Trump).

However, abstaining and acting like you're making a noble action is little different than offering thoughts and prayers while the Trump administration actively discriminates against people of color and the LGBT community. Trump is actively cruel and is actively trying to become a dictator. What you're presenting is a false equivalence because Biden and Trump are two extremely different kinds of politicians. So, no, it isn't actively helping Trump to sit out, but it does hurt the people that the Trump administration is persecuting by means of inaction.

The first step to fixing any problem is to stop the thing that is actively causing the damage (note: assuming there is one, which in this case there is). It's like saying that you might as well let your house burn down because the fire department isn't going to help you fix it. Of course this isn't the same as throwing gasoline on the fire, making it worse, but it sure as hell isn't going to help.
Title: Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
Post by: SCarpelan on June 14, 2020, 05:44:35 pm
Even Noam Chomsky has endorsed Biden (https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/noam-chomskys-advice-palestine-advocates-vote-biden-keep-pressure) because the reality is that Trump MUST be removed and is too dangerous to be allowed to have a second term. I don't believe for a second that Chomsky is happy about it, but he's calling for people act strategically based on a bad option and an absolutely atrocious option.

And that's exactly why it irks me. No one is asking people to like Biden or even actively campaign for him. "Bernie was the compromise" is, ironically, a way to excuse a refusal to compromise. It comes across as saying "well, we can't fix it immediately, no point in trying" while the Trump administration keeps trying to push towards becoming a dictatorship.

Yes, I'm advocating for vote blue no matter who, but that's because vote blue no matter who doesn't mean that the Democrats are all good or right, but because the Republican party has become so fucking corrupt that just about anyone is an improvement.

If that person is either living in a safe state or is an activist who works outside the electoral sphere and was temporarily interested in electoralism because there was someone they thought might make a difference I have no problem with this take. I would try to convince them to vote for Biden if they live in a swing state but would respect their decision if they refused. Besides activism and organizing outside party politics I've also seen people like this discuss the importance of voting blue on downballot races since even in the electoral realm the presidential election is just part of the picture.

If the person is just one of the extremely online people throwing a tantrum then they need to grow up, though.

By the way, if Sanders is a compromise candidate for someone then by definition they are willing to compromise since they have already done so. Even Sanders isn't enough for those who don't see compromise as an option and they have been gloating about every bad take he has had as justifications for their view.
Title: Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
Post by: dpareja on June 14, 2020, 05:55:18 pm
I suspect that a lot of the people who have said, "I can't vote for Biden because of his support for policies A/B/C/etc" (and rhetoric and platforms are one thing, actual votes and bill sponsorships are another, because the former are words and the latter are actions) don't like that that's the stance to which their consciences have driven them. I would be very surprised if more than a tiny percentage spite-voted for Trump.

And the other thing that I think your analogy misses is that the Obama/Biden status quo sucked for a lot of people. What swung 2016 to Trump? People who had twice voted for Obama, and then switched to Trump because Obama hadn't made their lives any better--if anything they'd gotten worse, and they feared that their lives would get even worse than they already were if certain policies Obama advocated for (such as implementing the TPP, which Clinton was calling the "gold standard" of trade deals until Sanders pretty much forced her to be against it, and which Obama continued to advocate for even then) were to become law.

Trump isn't the disease. Trump is a symptom of a deeper rot that's been festering since the 1970s at least (as noted by Noam Chomsky (https://www.democracynow.org/2019/5/27/chomsky_by_focusing_on_russia_democrats)), and that rot has been sustained by and growing under the leadership of politicians such as Biden. It's the rot of a system that produces "socialism for the rich and rugged individualism for the poor" that's causing the damage. A continuation of that system, such as under a Biden presidency, would only serve to produce another candidate from the far right like Trump, except one who isn't as obviously grotesque, incompetent, and idiotic as Trump, and won't be so blatant in his attempt to implement fascist policies so quickly--someone like Viktor Orbán, whose first government (1998-2002) was generally considered a pretty standard European conservative government by my understanding.

The only equivalence being presented, essentially, is that the answer to the question, "Gun to your head, Biden or Trump?" is, for left-wing voters who vote on the basis of ideological agreement and conscience, "The bullet."

Biden might be better overall (though worse than Trump on a few select issues), but still sufficiently bad that a vote for them is unconscionable.

And when you tell someone to ignore their conscience--which is what telling them to vote for Biden is--don't be surprised when they tell you to fuck off, don't be surprised if they dismiss you as a partisan hack, and don't be surprised if it makes them less inclined to vote for any candidates from your preferred party in future.
Title: Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
Post by: DarkPhoenix on June 14, 2020, 08:17:20 pm
such as implementing the TPP, which Clinton was calling the "gold standard" of trade deals until Sanders pretty much forced her to be against it, and which Obama continued to advocate for even then

Which version?  The original, or the Republican rewritten version which was a major piece of shit?  Because you're conflating the two; it was the former that Clinton called the "gold standard" of trade deals, and it was the latter that both of them were 100% against.
Title: Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
Post by: niam2023 on June 14, 2020, 08:24:50 pm
And what? What is it you want Dpareja?

What's your solution to this system?

Because if its some kind of grand revolution, I can tell you surprisingly few people on this board will probably be in it for your revolution.
Title: Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
Post by: Cloud3514 on June 14, 2020, 08:52:32 pm
I think unprecedented Republican obstructionism did a lot of that "making things worse." Now, I'm not so naive to say it's all on the Republicans, but their plan for the entirety of Obama's presidency was do nothing, sabotage Obama trying to do things and blame Obama when nothing gets done. Again, not trying to blame the Republicans for all of Obama's failings because my point is that politics is fucking complicated. Similarly, there are a number of reasons Clinton lost in 2016 and trying to pin point an exact explanation is an exercise in futility. Because if you say it was because Obama didn't make the world better enough, I could point out that statistics show one of the biggest reasons, if not the single biggest reason, people voted for Trump was racism.

"But if we elect Biden, the next Republican will be worse than Trump!" is a rhetorical statement that can't really be argued against because it's entirely a hypothetical. Obama did not directly lead to Trump. I entirely agree that the problems with the system go far beyond Trump, but this is blaming Obama for Trump. What lead to Trump is a Republican party that has over the course of the last 40 years grown so power hungry and corrupt that they'll do literally anything if it means getting more power and a Democratic party that hasn't had the power to stop them and prioritizes honorable politics. Because it's pretty fucking hard to win political battles against the party who has consistently held more power on average since the 1990s that cheats at every chance they get. Yes, the Democrats need to stop trying to place nice, but that's small potatoes compared to everything else.

In 2018, the Democrats swept the popular vote here in Wisconsin with the exception of the State Senate. And that State Senate? The share of seats is 63-35, while the popular vote was 53-47. The State Assembly? Democrats won the popular vote 53-45, but the Republicans held 63 out of 99 seats. For the federal House? Not a single seat flipped despite the Democrats winning the popular vote 53-46. Now I'm not trying to turn this into an argument about gerrymandering. The point I'm trying to make is that the Republicans are directly responsible for most of the political issues of the country. They cheat elections, they actively oppress people, they hold themselves to way different standards than they hold the Democrats to.

If a Democrat had committed just ONE of the uncountable impeachable offenses Trump has, they would have been removed in record time. The point I'm trying to make is to show why I'm on team "vote blue no matter who," despite not being a Democrat.

Biden is not a solution. He's simply the first step unbreaking the system and needs to be seen as such. Will he? I don't fucking know. I can't see into the future and am far from the expert on the subject, but considering how successful Trump has been at throwing off anything that can hold him accountable, how do we know we'll have a chance to even TRY to fix things if he wins?
Title: Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
Post by: RavynousHunter on June 14, 2020, 09:29:28 pm
Dontcha just love America?  Where people can sit on their fat asses and pretend that doing nothing is some kind of noble act of defiance.

We know the system's fuckin' corrupt.  We know Biden ain't the fuckin' solution, but the key point is: we don't fuckin' have a solution.  We have a step in a good direction; maybe a small one, but a step nonetheless.  You gotta take the good you fuckin' can.  Yes, we're all eating the same shit sandwich, but at least we have the option to put some motherfucking mustard on it.
Title: Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
Post by: dpareja on June 14, 2020, 11:54:32 pm
Oh, if you want me to talk about revolutions, the US needs something far more wide-ranging than a political one. The problems with the US go back to 1787 and the only thing that's really going to address it is wholesale constitutional reform, informed by two centuries' worth of development in constitutional theory.
Title: Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
Post by: davedan on June 14, 2020, 11:59:45 pm
I have been thinking if the democrats don't win the presidency and the senate the US is basically fucked. The implosion will continue.
Title: Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
Post by: Kanzenkankaku on June 15, 2020, 12:13:55 am
Please. (https://twitter.com/EmpressJess777/status/1271992617610420225?s=20) I shouldn't have to point out when I'm making generalizations or using hyperbole. It would be absurd to assume that all Bernie supporters are applying a double standard, but that doesn't make the ones that do any less hypocritical. For my experience, with one exception who conveniently stayed quiet until I posted about it on Facebook, not one of the Bernie supporter friends I have have said anything about it, even after it was directly pointed out to them. And the one that did acknowledge it? She's very much in the "Bernie was the compromise" camp that irks for a number of reasons.

And what do I see Twitter Bernie Bros doing? Latching onto the part where Biden said he wants to put $300 million into funding reforms while happily ignoring that Bernie agrees with him almost entirely on this issue. Which is the same thing they do every time Biden says something. They take his statement out of context to make him look bad. "I would veto Medicare 4 All?" "Aim for the legs?" And these are just the tip of the iceberg.

Yes, there are Bernie supporters who are upset about Bernie for things as simple as even daring to compromise with the Democrats, but like I said, the "Bernie was the compromise" horseshit pisses me off for other reasons.

The brand of hyperbole you are engaged in is unhelpful, only leads to in-fighting. (Which is absolute gold tier irony considering all the complaints about certain bernie bros.) And the far bigger, more common problem is all of the people who paint Bernie as totally unwilling to ever compromise. People with actual power and influence push that narrative, meanwhile some basement socialists who aren't members of the media and only have clout on twitter occasionally get mad in the way you describe. Its far more productive to spend energy combating other issues and even the way you and others go about trying to convince people to vote Biden is extremely unproductive, and it can and has been done much more productively.
Title: Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
Post by: DarkPhoenix on June 15, 2020, 07:32:18 pm
Obama did not directly lead to Trump.

Well, he kind of did, in that a big portion of Trump's support was driven by racism, and a lot of racists were angry that a black man managed to get elected President twice...
Title: Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
Post by: dpareja on June 15, 2020, 07:33:52 pm
Obama did not directly lead to Trump.

Well, he kind of did, in that a big portion of Trump's support was driven by racism, and a lot of racists were angry that a black man managed to get elected President twice...

There weren't enough racists on their own to get Trump elected, though.

Obama didn't directly lead to Trump; the status quo which Obama largely maintained (EDIT: and to which Biden is basically promising to return; "nothing will fundamentally change") produced Trump.
Title: Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
Post by: Askold on June 16, 2020, 04:22:39 am
I can't read that in any other way than you saying that Obama lead to Trump.
Title: Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
Post by: dpareja on June 16, 2020, 04:52:56 am
I can't read that in any other way than you saying that Obama lead to Trump.

Obama maintained a status quo that predated his political career, and it was that status quo which produced Trump.

Obama led to Trump as much as Bush Jr, or Clinton, or Bush Sr, or Reagan did, or any of the many people to have been in Congressional leadership during that time, or business leaders, or any other such powerful position.
Title: Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
Post by: Vanto on June 16, 2020, 10:09:34 pm
I don't think we can point to any one factor as being the cause of Trump's election. There wasn't even a "spark".
Title: Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
Post by: niam2023 on June 16, 2020, 10:14:45 pm
So basically, in order to prevent another Trump, the people who by and large voted in favor of Biden as opposed to Sanders must...decide to all back Sanders or a hypothetical next populist candidate, who they didn't vote for, instead.

That just sounds so politically arrogant. "if you want to prevent another Trump, you have to admit WE ARE RIGHT AND DISCARD YOUR PREFERENCES."
Title: Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
Post by: dpareja on June 16, 2020, 11:20:09 pm
And guess what the Left is being told right now? "If you want to beat Trump now, you have to admit WE ARE RIGHT AND DISCARD YOUR PREFERENCES."

A lot of them are about as likely to say "Fuck off asshole" to that as you are to say that to the statement you made.

EDIT: Oh, and add Carter, Ford and Nixon to that list, because this goes back to Buckley v. Valeo at minimum, and that was written by a Nixon appointee.
Title: Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
Post by: niam2023 on June 17, 2020, 12:11:01 am
Biden WON the primary! There's a remarkable difference there. Plus that very much rings of "NO U! NO U! NO U!!"

So what? What's your great solution to this?

Title: Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
Post by: dpareja on June 17, 2020, 12:38:06 am
Biden WON the primary! There's a remarkable difference there. Plus that very much rings of "NO U! NO U! NO U!!"

So what? What's your great solution to this?

True. Biden won the primary. Sanders lost. (And it's on Sanders that he did.)

The argument was still being made nonetheless before the primary was decided, and a lot of people on the left are fed up with being told "ha ha you have to vote for this candidate you find pretty shitty because the other guy is so much worse!"

My solution? I already basically said it: the US's problems go back to 1787 and complete constitutional reform is essential, taking into account two centuries' worth of development in democratic constitutional theory. Nothing short of that will ultimately stick.
Title: Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
Post by: Askold on June 17, 2020, 03:10:12 am
Honestly, one of the issues with politics in USA is that the GOP will always fall in line to support whoever is their candidate and no matter what their agenda is. Meanwhile, the Democrats have much more nuanced views and their voters have a spine so they may refuse to support people and causes that they dilike, but at the same time... The Democrats that do so, afford to do this because of the priviledged position. "What's that? The opponent is slowly removing rights from LGBT people? Sucks to be them I guess, I'm not gonna vote for someone just because they have a D next to their name."

And although for a foreigner like me, both parties have really toxic primaries (I remember seeing attack ads on this forum like 10 years ago and even back then I said that in Finnish elections something like that would not be acceptable) for some reason the Republicans will ignore these grievances as soon as the winner is decided while the Democrats will keep on splintering and losing. Don't the Democrats already hold a massive majority and only lose because of gerrymandering, voting suppression and them simply not voting? The first two issues aren't their fault but the last one is something that just seems so odd. All those people who refuse to vote for the "lesser evil" letting the country slide further and further right, despite that supposedly being against their interests.
Title: Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
Post by: dpareja on June 17, 2020, 11:53:33 am
"Conservatives fall in line, liberals fall in love." That and Bill Clinton's line about "herding cats".
Title: Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
Post by: DarkPhoenix on June 17, 2020, 10:27:46 pm
I remember seeing attack ads on this forum like 10 years ago and even back then I said that in Finnish elections something like that would not be acceptable

Yeah, it's the same here in Canada.  The Conservatives have tried it for the last few PM elections and lost, repeatedly.  People here aren't interesting in hearing why the Liberal and NDP candidates suck with no mention of anything the PC's intend to do...
Title: Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
Post by: SCarpelan on June 18, 2020, 12:27:37 am
Honestly, one of the issues with politics in USA is that the GOP will always fall in line to support whoever is their candidate and no matter what their agenda is. Meanwhile, the Democrats have much more nuanced views and their voters have a spine so they may refuse to support people and causes that they dilike, but at the same time... The Democrats that do so, afford to do this because of the priviledged position. "What's that? The opponent is slowly removing rights from LGBT people? Sucks to be them I guess, I'm not gonna vote for someone just because they have a D next to their name."

And although for a foreigner like me, both parties have really toxic primaries (I remember seeing attack ads on this forum like 10 years ago and even back then I said that in Finnish elections something like that would not be acceptable) for some reason the Republicans will ignore these grievances as soon as the winner is decided while the Democrats will keep on splintering and losing. Don't the Democrats already hold a massive majority and only lose because of gerrymandering, voting suppression and them simply not voting? The first two issues aren't their fault but the last one is something that just seems so odd. All those people who refuse to vote for the "lesser evil" letting the country slide further and further right, despite that supposedly being against their interests.
The Democratic party has our Social Democrats and National Coalition inside the same party and the people in charge are mainly NCP. In a healthy system they would be two different parties. From SDP's perspective an unconditional unity means submitting to NCP so instead, they need to extract every concession they get before allying with NCP against the total nutjobs. From NCP's perspective you want people to see SDP's demands as unreasonable and yourself as the sensible ones to have as little pressure as possible to give those concessions.

From the perspective of those politicians at the top, SDP is actually more dangerous to your power than the opposing party. Losing to the other party means you will just try again in the next election. Losing the power struggle inside your own party means you lose the control of the party mechanisms and are in a much worse position to fight back.
Title: Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
Post by: dpareja on June 18, 2020, 12:42:06 am
Of course, that makes the assumption that the other party will continue to actually respect things like "holding elections" (which already they only barely do).

But this is why, at an absolute bare minimum, the US needs proportional representation in its legislature. The problem is that if that happens, it's very likely that a) the fiscal progressives will win and b) the social conservatives will win, which is an outcome unacceptable to those currently in power, being generally opposed to both. (And yes, there are people who are fiscally progressive and socially conservative; Saagar Enjeti comes to mind as being roughly in that camp.)
Title: Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
Post by: Vanto on June 18, 2020, 03:17:17 am
Well, some GOP bigwigs have started a pro-Biden super PAC (https://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/503104-republican-operatives-pushing-gop-turnout-for-biden-with-new-super-pac). Looks like Trump may be a uniter after all... just not in a way that actually helps him.
Title: Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
Post by: niam2023 on June 18, 2020, 03:36:07 am
Trump: Uniting the entire county in sheer disdain for him.
Title: Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
Post by: dpareja on June 18, 2020, 05:36:18 am
Wasn't there a "Republicans for Hillary" group in 2016?
Title: Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
Post by: ironbite on June 18, 2020, 09:28:16 am
Probably.  It just wasn't as vocal as now a days.

Ironbite-which makes sense with the state of everything going on.
Title: Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
Post by: Cloud3514 on June 18, 2020, 04:38:48 pm
I mean, they're still supporting the Republican party as a whole, so their support of Biden seems to be a case of "get rid of the idiot, we don't care about putting fascists in office if they're not loud and stupid."
Title: Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
Post by: niam2023 on June 18, 2020, 07:04:49 pm
Or they have some degree of reasoning for the future. After all, with Trump swinging further and further into the alt-right's wheelhouse, and how incredibly successful the alt-right attempted politicians were, they know that the so called dissident right is a loss. More or less, they want to (most likely unsuccessfully) attempt to save the party from being stained by Trump.
Title: Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
Post by: Cloud3514 on July 14, 2020, 08:56:00 pm
So my Twitter's getting filled up with Bernie or Busters taking Biden out of concext and crying about how they can't tell who's worse again. Must be a day that ends in "y."

This time its about fracking because Biden proposed transitioning away from it instead of an immediate hard ban. I'm sure its a coincidence that the same people are ignoring the $2 trillion pledge to fight climate change he made.
Title: Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
Post by: niam2023 on July 15, 2020, 01:32:53 am
They're accelerationist filth that would blame the DNC for stubbing their toe in the morning. Do not expect logic from them.
Title: Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
Post by: Cloud3514 on July 15, 2020, 01:53:46 am
Honestly, I'm just starting to think I need to abandon Twitter.
Title: Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
Post by: ironbite on July 15, 2020, 03:46:56 pm
Or just follow porn accounts.
Title: Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
Post by: niam2023 on July 27, 2020, 03:14:05 am
https://www.sfchronicle.com/politics/article/Shahid-Buttar-Nancy-Pelosi-s-election-15424675.php

Shahid Buttar, opponent of Nancy Pelosi, has been accused of sexual assault.

Meanwhile, this is how his fans respond; https://i.redd.it/zijukvko1bd51.jpg
Title: Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
Post by: Vanto on July 27, 2020, 03:23:10 am
https://www.sfchronicle.com/politics/article/Shahid-Buttar-Nancy-Pelosi-s-election-15424675.php

Shahid Buttar, opponent of Nancy Pelosi, has been accused of sexual assault.

Meanwhile, this is how his fans respond; https://i.redd.it/zijukvko1bd51.jpg

What's really sad is how unsurprising that is.
Title: Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
Post by: ironbite on July 27, 2020, 03:51:15 pm
Suspicious timing but not surprised.

Ironbite-people in power do this.
Title: Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
Post by: dpareja on July 27, 2020, 06:33:36 pm
Every part of the political spectrum is rank with hypocrisy.
Title: Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
Post by: DarkPhoenix on July 29, 2020, 09:06:08 pm
https://www.sfchronicle.com/politics/article/Shahid-Buttar-Nancy-Pelosi-s-election-15424675.php

Shahid Buttar, opponent of Nancy Pelosi, has been accused of sexual assault.

Meanwhile, this is how his fans respond; https://i.redd.it/zijukvko1bd51.jpg

I'm shaking my head at all the idiots who are saying this is a setup by Nancy Pelosi to "eliminate a rival".  'Cause she's so concerned about an opponent who is trailing her by 40 or so points that she needs to come up with BS accusations, right?

But anyone with a brain should have seen through Shahid already.  He's not a progressive; he just plays one.  We're talking about a guy who posts agreement under EVERY.  SINGLE.  DONALD.  TRUMP.  TWEET.  Did he hope no one would notice?
Title: Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
Post by: niam2023 on July 29, 2020, 10:04:50 pm
He seriously said he agreed with Trump on every single tweet?

Or that he just "agrees" with everyone commenting on them?
Title: Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
Post by: Cloud3514 on July 29, 2020, 10:41:26 pm
There's also that his campaign strategy is so fucking obvious that only the most die-hard "demexit" idiots will fall for it. For all the talk from the anti-Biden crowd about how Biden's "only" selling point is that he's not Trump, Buttar's supporters have completely missed that his entire selling point is that he's not Pelosi.
Title: Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
Post by: niam2023 on July 29, 2020, 10:56:06 pm
Thankfully Nancy Pelosi is stomping this idiot into the ground in the polls.
Title: Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
Post by: DarkPhoenix on July 30, 2020, 09:42:57 pm
He seriously said he agreed with Trump on every single tweet?

Or that he just "agrees" with everyone commenting on them?

I read Trump's tweets and the cesspool that is the comment section under them on occasion, just to see how far past Pluto him and his supporters are.  Let's just say stumbling across Shahid attempting to draw attention to Trump's posts by posting direct comments under them stating "he agrees and that's why he's opposing Nancy Pelosi" under there isn't exactly uncommon... It's one of the first names I really noticed.

Plus there's the fact that he was one of the first to hype the Tara Reade story...

Basically, he's one of those "I hate the Dem party so much, I'm going to attack them from any angle I can find, and if it leads to more Donald Trump, it's not MY problem" so-called Leftists.
Title: Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
Post by: niam2023 on July 30, 2020, 10:37:04 pm
They're accelerationists.

The same people who said in Nazi Germany that in order to make GLORIOUS REVOLUTION happen, they needed to just let Hitler win. Surely it wouldn't be that bad.

The anti-logic for them is probably that these people who would die in the course of the "acceleration" should just be glad their deaths served GLORIOUS REVOLUTION.
Title: Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
Post by: ironbite on August 12, 2020, 04:47:50 pm
Stick a fork in the debate, Kamala Harris is his running mate.
Title: Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
Post by: davedan on August 12, 2020, 06:51:41 pm
I look forward to Garrison doing many more sexy Kamala Harris cartoons. Hottest VP candidate since Caribou Barbie. Hopefully the hottest VP since Gerald Forde.
Title: Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
Post by: Cloud3514 on August 12, 2020, 10:21:21 pm
Kamala Harris isn't a surprise. My hope was for Duckworth with Harris as AG, but Harris at least isn't a truly BAD choice. You might think I was in favor of Warren, but I much prefer the sound of "Senate Majority Leader Elizabeth Warren."

Still won't stop a friend of mine from bitching about how "she's a cop" to everyone because he falls into basically every stereotype of the Bernie or Buster you can think of.
Title: Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
Post by: ironbite on August 12, 2020, 10:50:21 pm
I was hoping for Stacy Abrhams but I'll take Harris.

Ironbite-least the VP debate is gonna be a fireworks show.
Title: Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
Post by: niam2023 on August 12, 2020, 11:25:15 pm
Let alone all the Tumblr Left folks who think "WE can tank Biden / Harris because TUMBLR IS REAL LIFE!!"
Title: Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
Post by: Id82 on August 13, 2020, 12:28:55 am
I was hoping for Stacy Abrhams but I'll take Harris.

Ironbite-least the VP debate is gonna be a fireworks show.

Do you think Pence will be allowed to be on the debate stage with Harris if mother isn't there?
Title: Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
Post by: niam2023 on August 13, 2020, 02:14:19 am
Well obviously not, so they'll have to exhume her from Pence's basement and drag that carcass all the way to the front row of seats.
Title: Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
Post by: dpareja on August 13, 2020, 08:03:24 am
Well obviously not, so they'll have to exhume her from Pence's basement and drag that carcass all the way to the front row of seats.

Pence calls his wife "mother".

EDIT: https://www.cbc.ca/news/business/kamala-harris-vice-president-economy-1.5683974

Also, as Don Pittis notes, by the standards of most (other) developed democracies, Harris would be running for that country's mainstream conservative party.
Title: Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
Post by: DarkPhoenix on August 13, 2020, 06:00:57 pm
Still won't stop a friend of mine from bitching about how "she's a cop" to everyone because he falls into basically every stereotype of the Bernie or Buster you can think of.

Those guys would only be satisfied with Bernie (fuck age, right?) or Nina Turner as the VP...
Title: Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
Post by: Cloud3514 on August 13, 2020, 09:10:36 pm
Those guys would only be satisfied with Bernie (fuck age, right?) or Nina Turner as the VP...

That's not true.

The moment Nina Turner became a candidate for any executive office, she'd become "not that woman."
Title: Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
Post by: niam2023 on August 13, 2020, 09:46:42 pm
The "cool girl" status gets taken away in exactly as little time as it takes for her to threaten fragile egos.

The sooner people just write off the dirtbag left, the better.

The alt-right never deserved to be flattered with relevance in the government, and the dirtbag left similarly doesn't deserve the dignity.
Title: Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
Post by: Id82 on August 14, 2020, 10:53:10 am
Anyone surprised that Trump is now pushing birthirism on Kamala Harris now?
Title: Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
Post by: dpareja on August 14, 2020, 11:24:57 am
Of course not. Birtherism was always just thinly veiled racism.

And, as noted in the article I posted about her, it's no secret that Sen. Harris spent a good deal of her childhood in Montreal.
Title: Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
Post by: RavynousHunter on August 14, 2020, 12:25:34 pm
Of course not. Birtherism was always just thinly veiled racism.

And, as noted in the article I posted about her, it's no secret that Sen. Harris spent a good deal of her childhood in Montreal.

Thankfully, that matters fuck all since she was born in Oakland.

Ya know, it really goes to show Dump's estimation of Biden's intelligence, thinking the guy would be stupid enough to choose someone who can't even be allowed into the office as his VP.
Title: Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
Post by: dpareja on August 14, 2020, 04:13:30 pm
Of course not. Birtherism was always just thinly veiled racism.

And, as noted in the article I posted about her, it's no secret that Sen. Harris spent a good deal of her childhood in Montreal.

Thankfully, that matters fuck all since she was born in Oakland.

Ya know, it really goes to show Dump's estimation of Biden's intelligence, thinking the guy would be stupid enough to choose someone who can't even be allowed into the office as his VP.

In fairness Biden is pretty clearly in a state of cognitive decline. It's hardly consistent but the signs are there.

And yes, Sen. Harris was born in Oakland. Of course it doesn't matter where she grew up. And the birtherism has much more to do with her black and Indian ancestry than it does with her growing up in one of the richest neighbourhoods in Canada. (If anything that would be a point in her favour to someone like Trump who only respects wealth. Remember that there were reports that Trump was amenable to the idea of allowing rich people from Asia to immigrate to the US, whereas Steve Bannon was opposed to it. Trump's racism is very much rooted in classism, and it becomes racism both to appeal to his audience and because, in the US, black and Hispanic people are disproportionately poor while white people are disproportionately rich, a legacy of course of slavery and Jim Crow.)