The extreme danger of stupid religions.

[Ultimate Paragon]

Hamas also violates international law.  Or do you think they have the right to deliberately murder civilians?

Nobody is siding with Hamas, as much as you want them to.

Who we are siding with are the Palestinian civilians who were forced to choose between terrorists who said they would aid them, or being driven out of their homes so that Israel could almost literally pave over them and make new Jewish settlements for Jewish people.

That's a false dichotomy right there.  They have other options.  For example, what about nonviolent resistance?  It worked for India, it worked for African-Americans, so it can work for Palestine.

Nonviolent resistance only works when you can shame your adversary into doing what you want them to do.

And they can.  Israel is not China.  It is a democracy, where the media isn't censored.  Most Israelis would probably sympathize with Palestinians allowing themselves to be beaten and arrested for their cause.

[Witchyjoshy]

Hamas also violates international law.  Or do you think they have the right to deliberately murder civilians?

Nobody is siding with Hamas, as much as you want them to.

Who we are siding with are the Palestinian civilians who were forced to choose between terrorists who said they would aid them, or being driven out of their homes so that Israel could almost literally pave over them and make new Jewish settlements for Jewish people.

That's a false dichotomy right there.  They have other options.  For example, what about nonviolent resistance?  It worked for India, it worked for African-Americans, so it can work for Palestine.

Incorrect.  What works for one situation doesn't work for all other situations, even similar situations.

Not to mention the more pressure Israel put on the Palestinians, the less options they had, and non-violence isn't always an option.  You know that.  Everybody knows that.

Seriously, you're blaming Palestine for doing exactly what most other nations have done when a much stronger nation has pressed on them with the extent of taking them over.  How can you not see this?

And before you ask, yes, those other nations relied on terrorists, too.  What do you think "freedom fighters" are?

And they can.  Israel is not China.  It is a democracy, where the media isn't censored.  Most Israelis would probably sympathize with Palestinians allowing themselves to be beaten and arrested for their cause.

Yeah that's right, Palestinians, wait for the people of Israel to cut through the red tape.  In the meantime, allow yourselves to be beaten, tortured, and slaughtered for daring to exist.  That'll show em!

[Ultimate Paragon]

You're right about one thing.  Hamas is composed of freedom fighters... in the sense that they fight freedom.

Since we're calling Israel an Apartheid nation, let's compare Hamas to the African National Congress.

The ANC: was willing to put peaceful means first, adhered to non-violence for almost fifty years, attempted to achieve racial equality by pleading for negotiations, only took to violence after the Sharpeville massacre, directed violence against military targets and property rather than civilians, had large numbers of non-black members, became the first liberation movement to sign the Geneva Convention, expressed regret over casualties suffered by innocent civilians, always considered armed struggle secondary, and established a true (albeit flawed) democracy.

Hamas: was violent from the very beginning, believes armed struggle is the only way, has never even tried non-violent means, deliberately targets civilians, openly violates the Geneva Convention, gloats over civilian deaths, is openly bigoted, wants nothing less than the destruction of Israel, cheered al-Qaeda attacks, and wants to establish a brutal Islamic theocracy.

Considering the ANC and Hamas to be fundamentally similar organizations can only be explained if the fool doing it is *completely* ignoring the fundamental philosophies and practices of the two parties.

[RavynousHunter]

Its ironic that UP points out a false dichotomy and, in the same breath, creates one himself.  The situations that faced black folks in the US and people in India are not the same as the one that faces the people in Palestine and shouldn't be treated as such.  Also, brother, get yer head out your behind; nobody's supporting Hamas.  The reason some Palestinians like them is because they're seen as the only ones actually doing something about the Israeli bellends trying to kick down their doors and force them to live somewhere else.  For the Palestinians, they're even more a galvanizing force than the rebels were during the US' war of independence, because instead of a bunch of rich, white dudes fighting for lower taxes or some shit, you've got people that look the world, to them, like they're the only thing standing between their families and, at best, exile to a foreign land.

Is Hamas a terrorist organization?  Yes.  Are their methods despicable?  Yes.  But, why don't you try to force an entire people off their land.  Watch how long it takes them to start forming terrorist militias to vilify and destroy your people in a rush of violent rage.

[Canadian Mojo]

You're right about one thing.  Hamas is composed of freedom fighters... in the sense that they fight freedom.

Since we're calling Israel an Apartheid nation, let's compare Hamas to the African National Congress.

The ANC: was willing to put peaceful means first, adhered to non-violence for almost fifty years, attempted to achieve racial equality by pleading for negotiations, only took to violence after the Sharpeville massacre, directed violence against military targets and property rather than civilians, had large numbers of non-black members, became the first liberation movement to sign the Geneva Convention, expressed regret over casualties suffered by innocent civilians, always considered armed struggle secondary, and established a true (albeit flawed) democracy.

Hamas: was violent from the very beginning, believes armed struggle is the only way, has never even tried non-violent means, deliberately targets civilians, openly violates the Geneva Convention, gloats over civilian deaths, is openly bigoted, wants nothing less than the destruction of Israel, cheered al-Qaeda attacks, and wants to establish a brutal Islamic theocracy.

Considering the ANC and Hamas to be fundamentally similar organizations can only be explained if the fool doing it is *completely* ignoring the fundamental philosophies and practices of the two parties.

PLO: recognized as the sole legitimate representative of the Palestinian people by over 100 nations. Endorsed a two state solution. Recognized Israel's right to exist in peace. Rejected violence and terrorism. Formally nullified parts of its charter that called for armed resistance and destruction of Israel. Rejects Hamas membership in the organization.

Israel: "it's a ruse"

[Ultimate Paragon]

You're right about one thing.  Hamas is composed of freedom fighters... in the sense that they fight freedom.

Since we're calling Israel an Apartheid nation, let's compare Hamas to the African National Congress.

The ANC: was willing to put peaceful means first, adhered to non-violence for almost fifty years, attempted to achieve racial equality by pleading for negotiations, only took to violence after the Sharpeville massacre, directed violence against military targets and property rather than civilians, had large numbers of non-black members, became the first liberation movement to sign the Geneva Convention, expressed regret over casualties suffered by innocent civilians, always considered armed struggle secondary, and established a true (albeit flawed) democracy.

Hamas: was violent from the very beginning, believes armed struggle is the only way, has never even tried non-violent means, deliberately targets civilians, openly violates the Geneva Convention, gloats over civilian deaths, is openly bigoted, wants nothing less than the destruction of Israel, cheered al-Qaeda attacks, and wants to establish a brutal Islamic theocracy.

Considering the ANC and Hamas to be fundamentally similar organizations can only be explained if the fool doing it is *completely* ignoring the fundamental philosophies and practices of the two parties.

PLO: recognized as the sole legitimate representative of the Palestinian people by over 100 nations. Endorsed a two state solution. Recognized Israel's right to exist in peace. Rejected violence and terrorism. Formally nullified parts of its charter that called for armed resistance and destruction of Israel. Rejects Hamas membership in the organization.

Israel: "it's a ruse"

No.  Israel has recognized the PLO since 1993.

http://articles.latimes.com/1993-09-10/news/mn-33546_1_mutual-recognition

[Canadian Mojo]

No.  Israel has recognized the PLO since 1993.

http://articles.latimes.com/1993-09-10/news/mn-33546_1_mutual-recognition

And has done precisely what in the furtherance of finding an agreement in 21 years?

The Palestinians have nothing but violence and land to bargain with. The PLO laid violence on the table --effectively they surrendered-- in the hope that maybe Israel would stop flouting international law and let them keep the land they are legally entitled to. Apparently that is too much to ask.

[Ultimate Paragon]

Israel has dismantled all its settlements in the Gaza Strip.  And Ariel Sharon is widely believed to have been planning a massive withdrawal from the West Bank before his stroke.