Author Topic: U.S. directs agents to cover up program used to investigate Americans  (Read 4238 times)

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Offline MadCatTLX

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Re: U.S. directs agents to cover up program used to investigate Americans
« Reply #15 on: August 09, 2013, 09:31:57 pm »
I remember seeing in the news the other day that it was discovered the NSA was reading or listening to the content of many communications that go to anyone internationally and anything that even mentions foreigners.

Since this board is technically communicating with foreigners:

To the NSA agent reading this, please send the message to your bosses that they can go fornicate themselves with a cactus.
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Offline Thejebusfire

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Re: U.S. directs agents to cover up program used to investigate Americans
« Reply #16 on: August 10, 2013, 12:31:22 am »
So does this mean were going to randomly sting more poverty stricken people for drugs they never had?

Offline ironbite

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Re: U.S. directs agents to cover up program used to investigate Americans
« Reply #17 on: August 10, 2013, 04:12:13 pm »
Yes.

Offline PosthumanHeresy

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Re: U.S. directs agents to cover up program used to investigate Americans
« Reply #18 on: August 11, 2013, 02:57:15 am »
Surely that makes sense, though? You've got a confidential source, like a wire or a snitch - you don't want to expose, so you create a reasonable second source of information. Sure, that maybe makes the trial slightly less fair, but lots of things do that. Obviously, if the US system prohibits this then don't do it right now. But should US law do so? This seems like something reasonable people might disagree on.

The thing is, this isn't coming from covering up a snitch. That's a legitimate source of a tip and is one thing. This is coming about because the NSA is giving this information to the DEA so that local police & DEA can make specialized searches on individuals that they otherwise wouldn't.

I guess what I mean to say is that covering up a legitimate source for safety is one thing and acceptable, covering up an illegitimate source by making it "look" legitimate isn't. Just the NSA program was said to be for national security and now it's being used to violate privacy so we can bust kids smoking pot...
Wait, does this make Nash's (from WTFIWWY) theory that the "butt dial" crime arrests are bullshit by the NSA more likely? That said, this is fucked up.
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Offline Canadian Mojo

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Re: U.S. directs agents to cover up program used to investigate Americans
« Reply #19 on: August 11, 2013, 12:24:56 pm »
Surely that makes sense, though? You've got a confidential source, like a wire or a snitch - you don't want to expose, so you create a reasonable second source of information.

Lets see, entrapment, illegal search and seizure, malicious/targeted prosecution, the right to face your accuser. Am I missing any of the big reasons why this doesn't make (philosophical) sense?

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Sure, that maybe makes the trial slightly less fair, but lots of things do that.

Well, if lots of things already do that, then why does the government need yet another dirty trick to swing the advantage in their favor? As I recall, the system is supposed on the presumption that it is better to let the guilty walk free than it is to wrongfully convict someone. In fact, I thought that was pretty much one of the liberal cornerstones seeing as how it falls under human rights and all.

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Obviously, if the US system prohibits this then don't do it right now.


So if it is legal it is just. Is this what you are saying? I've heard that same argument from fundies when it comes to morality only they are using God for their basis of who decides what is right. You have simply substituted the state as your supreme being that all must bow down and accept as being the final decider without any thought or question.


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But should US law do so? This seems like something reasonable people might disagree on.

No, I am afraid that reasonable people won't find much to disagree on. The U.S. was doing just fine without this and would continue to do just fine without it. There is no credible new threat to society that can justify this intrusion and outright disregarding of the civil liberties. If you want to talk about how it is justified to use it to prevent terrorism, then there is reasonable something to discuss.

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Offline Lt. Fred

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Re: U.S. directs agents to cover up program used to investigate Americans
« Reply #20 on: August 11, 2013, 11:11:58 pm »
Surely that makes sense, though? You've got a confidential source, like a wire or a snitch - you don't want to expose, so you create a reasonable second source of information.

Lets see, entrapment, illegal search and seizure, malicious/targeted prosecution, the right to face your accuser. Am I missing any of the big reasons why this doesn't make (philosophical) sense?

What? How is that entrapment?

Presumably the government gets a warrant for the wiretap (don't need a warrant for a confidential informant). You still face the government, they just charge you in connection with possession of drugs due to a non-random drug stop.

I'm imagining a gang situation, where you find out on a legally-authorised wire that Person X is moving one billion tonnes of heroin from wherever to wherever. You do a "random" drug stop. You do not have enough on them to arrest the entire gang, but if you leave the wire up a little longer, you will. Why should they know that you found out through a wire?

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Obviously, if the US system prohibits this then don't do it right now.


So if it is legal it is just.

No, if it is illegal, it ought not to be done until it is legal. But I think it should be legal. I don't think the government should do things that I want, but are illegal.
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Offline chitoryu12

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Re: U.S. directs agents to cover up program used to investigate Americans
« Reply #21 on: August 11, 2013, 11:19:22 pm »
The "You have nothing to hide" argument is worthless. It's very, very easy to find some kind of violation or interpret many things as potential admittances to crimes or statements that could get you put on a terror watch list. Even today, people are spuriously placed on watch lists (Mark Ruffalo was, and might still be, on a no-fly list because he participated in an environmentalist documentary). This is talking about allowing the government to not only do all the spying they want, but they don't have to admit anything to anybody. They just put in for an arrest and keep everything secret. For all you know, they didn't HAVE a warrant in the first place and nobody can tell because they refuse to divulge the necessary information.

We put the laws regarding warrants, evidence, and transparency in place specifically to prevent these kinds of situations. Now we're trying to break down those laws, but only for the biggest folks on the playground.
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