Author Topic: "Good lord, Internet! Cut it out!" On Excessive Beiber Hate  (Read 45792 times)

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Art Vandelay

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Re: "Good lord, Internet! Cut it out!" On Excessive Beiber Hate
« Reply #90 on: August 08, 2013, 05:23:23 am »
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Market failure is a concept within economic theory describing when the allocation of goods and services by a free market is not efficient. That is, there exists another conceivable outcome where a market participant may be made better-off without making someone else worse-off.
In light of this, what would be your solution? Make the Twilight movies cheaper so there's more resources within the film industry left over to satisfy other demand? Do you have some other movie in mind that would appease not only to stupid teenage girls just as much as Twilight, but also appeal to some more discerning demographics in the process?

Or perhaps I'm right in assuming that you think demand for things that most would consider to be dreck is invalid, and therefore any supply is invalid?

Offline Lithp

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Re: "Good lord, Internet! Cut it out!" On Excessive Beiber Hate
« Reply #91 on: August 08, 2013, 06:09:04 am »
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I don't know what you mean.

A good artist knows good art. Good art will be judged to be good by a good artist. But we don't know how to find either one.

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but Twilight is not art.

I believe that any creation designed to evoke an appreciation of the aesthetics is art, & that art can be further classified.

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You were complaining about bad actors.

Oh, I was actually using acting as the example, since it was what started this discussion. I don't really see enough stuff to care about acting too much.

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Sometimes those bad actors do have fans who like them. Arnold Schwarzenegger and The Rock started out as pretty bad actors. In my opinion they have improved over the years. Does this mean that they've earned their fame or should they have been replaced with other more talented actors when they first showed up for a role?

I wouldn't say anything, because I'm not familiar with the context. But for a hypothetical bad actor, I say that he or she should not receive roles of a certain prestige until reaching a certain level of proficiency, & I'm not sure why that's such a novel idea. I'm not sure *how* bad we're talking, but you don't take someone who takes an average of 4 swings to hit a baseball & draft him into the major leagues.

And maybe what "should have" happened is a moot point, now.

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In fact, if we start banning art

I didn't say to ban or censor anything, I just entertained the possibility that I might benefit from some actual kind of standards. As an example, I like Bleach. Let's say that Shonen Jump had a policy that it wouldn't run stories where characters came back from the dead. Very simple rule, publishers already shoot down stories for shittier reasons, no one is prevented from simply finding a new publisher, & it would relieve a lot of my concerns about the story. Now, that's just an idea. It should not be taken as "the problem & the solution."

I'm not sure exactly what Fred is suggesting yet.

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My opinion is that rather than try to curb "bad" art we should just focus on finding that which interests us.

Honestly, my bigger concern is when I'm already invested in art I enjoy &/or is good, & then it becomes something I hate &/or is bad.

Also, after a certain point, every time I heard "Team Edward" or "Team Jacob," I wanted to kill someone.

Offline Flying Mint Bunny!

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Re: "Good lord, Internet! Cut it out!" On Excessive Beiber Hate
« Reply #92 on: August 08, 2013, 06:39:57 am »
Sometimes people want bad art/entertainment

One of the reasons I love The Tribe is because of the terrible acting.

If you had quality control on art you wouldn't get stuff like that, or the masterpiece that is R Kelly's Trapped In The Closet.

Offline Lt. Fred

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Re: "Good lord, Internet! Cut it out!" On Excessive Beiber Hate
« Reply #93 on: August 08, 2013, 09:13:48 am »
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Market failure is a concept within economic theory describing when the allocation of goods and services by a free market is not efficient. That is, there exists another conceivable outcome where a market participant may be made better-off without making someone else worse-off.
In light of this, what would be your solution?

To repeat:

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My first thought would be to get it out of the hands of "the market" (ie, corpoate executives) and back into the hands of people who actually love art, ie people who make it: film makers and so on.

I dunno how to do this best. Ultimately I would like a situation where the artistic community largely decides what they want to make, amongst themselves. Then they get the money to make it. One (imperfect) way of doing that is a government grants process, like the Australia council. That's how most serious art is funded, why not middlebrow stuff*? Another way might be a permanent endowment, a fund that provides money but does not have any control over content; a bit like the New York Times proprietor, or HBO. Yet another way might be a voucher system, where all citizens get a voucher representing government funding that can be cashed in to any registered whatever. All of these have problems, but they'd be I think better than the current system, the system that actually encourages shittiness.

This also has the benefit of making art free, and ending bullshit copywrite complaints.

* I don't even hate Twilight that much. At least, for all its annoying technical flaws, it is a somewhat new story- kinda. The trend I hate most of all in the entertainment industry is towards total emphasis on style with no resources put into plots, which are usually pre-fabricated.
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Offline Lithp

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Re: "Good lord, Internet! Cut it out!" On Excessive Beiber Hate
« Reply #94 on: August 08, 2013, 09:16:24 am »
Vampire teen romance is new? Is it because of the sparkles? It's because of the sparkles, isn't it?

Offline Lt. Fred

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Re: "Good lord, Internet! Cut it out!" On Excessive Beiber Hate
« Reply #95 on: August 08, 2013, 09:19:07 am »
Vampire teen romance is new? Is it because of the sparkles? It's because of the sparkles, isn't it?

It wasn't exactly the same plot. My standards aren't high for this.
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Art Vandelay

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Re: "Good lord, Internet! Cut it out!" On Excessive Beiber Hate
« Reply #96 on: August 08, 2013, 09:32:04 am »
I dunno how to do this best. Ultimately I would like a situation where the artistic community largely decides what they want to make, amongst themselves. Then they get the money to make it. One (imperfect) way of doing that is a government grants process, like the Australia council. That's how most serious art is funded, why not middlebrow stuff*? Another way might be a permanent endowment, a fund that provides money but does not have any control over content; a bit like the New York Times proprietor, or HBO. Yet another way might be a voucher system, where all citizens get a voucher representing government funding that can be cashed in to any registered whatever. All of these have problems, but they'd be I think better than the current system, the system that actually encourages shittiness.

This also has the benefit of making art free, and ending bullshit copywrite complaints.

* I don't even hate Twilight that much. At least, for all its annoying technical flaws, it is a somewhat new story- kinda. The trend I hate most of all in the entertainment industry is towards total emphasis on style with no resources put into plots, which are usually pre-fabricated.
As I said though, stuff like Twilight is not art. As I said already, it's very low brow entertainment. There's a difference between the two. In all honesty, your argument just boils down to "I don't like stupid entertainment, therefore it should be eradicated". As I say to any pro-censorship knob-end, if you don't like it, then don't watch it. There's plenty of films in existence that are sure to please your oh-so refined and cultured tastes. Just go watch those and ignore the likes of Twilight and Epic Movie and whatnot. Just don't try to claim that the economy as a whole has failed and requires government intervention just because films that you don't like exist.

Offline Lt. Fred

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Re: "Good lord, Internet! Cut it out!" On Excessive Beiber Hate
« Reply #97 on: August 08, 2013, 09:33:33 am »
Please point out where I advocated censorship, that is to say, legal prohibition.
Ultimate Paragon admits to fabricating a hit piece on Politico.

http://fqa.digibase.ca/index.php?topic=6936.0

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Art Vandelay

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Re: "Good lord, Internet! Cut it out!" On Excessive Beiber Hate
« Reply #98 on: August 08, 2013, 11:14:06 pm »
Nothing has ham-fisted as an outright ban, thankfully enough. However, you're still advocating government intervention in order to prevent films that you don't like from being made. All in all, the end result is the same.

Offline Lt. Fred

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Re: "Good lord, Internet! Cut it out!" On Excessive Beiber Hate
« Reply #99 on: August 08, 2013, 11:49:08 pm »
In the same way, you are also advocating censorship. In fact, everyone who thinks that a movie should or should not be made advocates censorship, according to your busted definition.
Ultimate Paragon admits to fabricating a hit piece on Politico.

http://fqa.digibase.ca/index.php?topic=6936.0

The party's name is the Democratic Party. It has been since 1830. Please spell correctly.

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-FDR

Art Vandelay

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Re: "Good lord, Internet! Cut it out!" On Excessive Beiber Hate
« Reply #100 on: August 08, 2013, 11:53:13 pm »
There's a difference between saying "I don't care for X" and "The government should do Y specifically to prevent X from existing".

Offline Witchyjoshy

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Re: "Good lord, Internet! Cut it out!" On Excessive Beiber Hate
« Reply #101 on: August 09, 2013, 01:53:06 am »
In the same way, you are also advocating censorship. In fact, everyone who thinks that a movie should or should not be made advocates censorship, according to your busted definition.

No, actually, it doesn't match Art's "busted" definition at all.

You're building straw men, Fred.  Stop doing it.  Think of the poor strawmen.

Please stop pretending to be an expert on economics, too.  You proven that you aren't five times now.

Not that I'm an expert, either, but it doesn't take a chemist to recognize snake oil.
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Offline Lt. Fred

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Re: "Good lord, Internet! Cut it out!" On Excessive Beiber Hate
« Reply #102 on: August 09, 2013, 02:43:38 am »
There's a difference between saying "I don't care for X" and "The government should do Y specifically to prevent X from existing".

I'm absolutely not advocating censorship. In fact, I want to remove market censorship, if by censorship we mean restrictions on the type of speech that is likely to be expressed. I think that movie directors should have more role in deciding what movies get made, not incompetent executives.

In a way, that is a kind of censorship. I don't want X to happen, I want Y to happen. But that's very, very common.
Ultimate Paragon admits to fabricating a hit piece on Politico.

http://fqa.digibase.ca/index.php?topic=6936.0

The party's name is the Democratic Party. It has been since 1830. Please spell correctly.

"The party must go wholly one way or wholly the other. It cannot face in both directions at the same time."
-FDR

Art Vandelay

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Re: "Good lord, Internet! Cut it out!" On Excessive Beiber Hate
« Reply #103 on: August 09, 2013, 02:55:11 am »
I'm absolutely not advocating censorship. In fact, I want to remove market censorship, if by censorship we mean restrictions on the type of speech that is likely to be expressed. I think that movie directors should have more role in deciding what movies get made, not incompetent executives.

In a way, that is a kind of censorship. I don't want X to happen, I want Y to happen. But that's very, very common.
You know that Hollywood is not the beginning and end of the global film industry, right? You want something a bit more high brow or that pushes the envelope beyond what some executive or investor thinks is acceptable, look elsewhere. You're sure to find something that suits your tastes.

Offline chitoryu12

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Re: "Good lord, Internet! Cut it out!" On Excessive Beiber Hate
« Reply #104 on: August 09, 2013, 03:49:44 am »
There's a difference between saying "I don't care for X" and "The government should do Y specifically to prevent X from existing".

I'm absolutely not advocating censorship. In fact, I want to remove market censorship, if by censorship we mean restrictions on the type of speech that is likely to be expressed. I think that movie directors should have more role in deciding what movies get made, not incompetent executives.

In a way, that is a kind of censorship. I don't want X to happen, I want Y to happen. But that's very, very common.

Ever hear of New Hollywood?

It was big around the 1970s, though it started in the 60s. It's the movement that gave us people like Francis Ford Coppola, Roman Polanski, Stanley Kubrick, and Martin Scorsese. Some of the biggest names in directing, especially when it comes to True Art. The whole point behind this era of Hollywood was abandoning the Golden Age and the studio system, which was based around executives making what earned the studios the most money. Directors held much more creative control than before, actors were coming from all sorts of nationalities and backgrounds (rather than the Golden Age's consistent white bread image), and taboos were being broken down. You got sex, violence, and True Art.

For a while, it was good. The Godfather and Apocalypse Now are two big names to come out of this time period. Same with stuff like Taxi Driver and Easy Rider. Everyone's seen films from the New Hollywood period. The major studios failed at the time (as they were trying to copy the success of The Sound of Music with big budget musicals that never profited), so they handed a ton of creative control to these directors.

The problem is that handing over total creative control to the artists isn't the way to go. And that was proven when the New Hollywood directors started making flops. They had gotten so much power that they were essentially protected from anyone who could reign in their egos or tell them that they were making mistakes or overstepping their boundaries. Heaven's Gate is the most infamous, being a gigantic, big budget Western with a ridiculously troubled production that flopped at the box office and lost everyone a lot of money, but it was a similar story across the board. Francis Ford Coppola has remained under the radar for ages despite being literally one of the most famous directors period. Michael Cimino made The Deer Hunter, but the aforementioned Western means that he's directed only 5 things since then, and only one was in the 2000s.

Giving total creative control to the creators seems like a good idea to someone who hasn't actually tried to work with them. Artists in all venues are flawed. Quite a few of them don't understand business as well as they do their art, which can turn a brilliant project into a travesty when they realize that they can't budget properly, or their magnum opus has essentially no appeal to anyone outside of a very specific demographic. Full artist control works on a small scale, like cheap indie films and small local art galleries. But as soon as you hit the big leagues, those nasty executives can actually tell you how to make enough money for your next work without alienating a lot of people. At the very least, you need people who are grounded enough to identify your mistakes and have the balls to tell you that you're fucking up.

tl;dr We tried your idea already, Fred. It worked for less than 20 years before it imploded.
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