Author Topic: Fun times in Syria  (Read 16320 times)

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Art Vandelay

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Re: Fun times in Syria
« Reply #30 on: August 31, 2013, 12:40:41 pm »
I'm very afraid that this turn into another clusterfuck like Iraq, and Afghanistan, and we'll end up bogged down for years to come. I would feel better we had a coalition of some sort to go in to it, and it seems that Obama is rushing into it, funny given that he had a problem when Bush rushed into Iraq.
I swear, if you Americans drag us into another Middle-Eastern money sinkhole of a clusterfuck like you did with Afghanistan and Iraq, there will be hell to pay. Fight your own damn battles.

Offline nickiknack

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Re: Fun times in Syria
« Reply #31 on: August 31, 2013, 12:50:27 pm »
I'm not in favor of going in to begin with, but going in alone is stupid, and is sure to end in a clusterfuck. But god forbid we wait for the UN or whatnot, no we have to jump the fucking gun in everything. Never said that I was in favor of going in, all I said it would better to do this as a joint effort if it does happen.
« Last Edit: August 31, 2013, 12:55:25 pm by Empress Nicki »

Art Vandelay

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Re: Fun times in Syria
« Reply #32 on: August 31, 2013, 01:13:21 pm »
I'm not in favor of going in to begin with, but going in alone is stupid, and is sure to end in a clusterfuck. But god forbid we wait for the UN or whatnot, no we have to jump the fucking gun in everything. Never said that I was in favor of going in, all I said it would better to do this as a joint effort if it does happen.
I know, but saying that you should at least get a coalition together first if you really must invade is my objection. Especially since my own government will probably be willing, assuming the conservatives win the next election (which they almost certainly will). It would be tantamount to a kick to the balls to drag us into another one of these clusterfucks right after we just got out of Iraq.

Offline Auri-El

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Re: Fun times in Syria
« Reply #33 on: August 31, 2013, 02:16:08 pm »
It is not our job to police the world. The only reason I can justify getting involved is if the fighting spreads to neighboring countries that want no part of it. Otherwise, it's an internal affair that Syria needs to deal with on its own.

This. We really need to stop interfering in other countries' affairs, using the excuse of "preventative measures." I mean, we're hardly a stellar example of obeying the United Nations. We have no right to attack other countries for doing the same things we've done, and we certainly don't need to jump in and try to stop them fighting among themselves. The double standard is infuriating.

Offline nickiknack

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Re: Fun times in Syria
« Reply #34 on: August 31, 2013, 02:32:40 pm »
It is not our job to police the world. The only reason I can justify getting involved is if the fighting spreads to neighboring countries that want no part of it. Otherwise, it's an internal affair that Syria needs to deal with on its own.

This. We really need to stop interfering in other countries' affairs, using the excuse of "preventative measures." I mean, we're hardly a stellar example of obeying the United Nations. We have no right to attack other countries for doing the same things we've done, and we certainly don't need to jump in and try to stop them fighting among themselves. The double standard is infuriating.

That would require us not thinking that we're special, which isn't going to happen anytime soon, sadly.

Offline SimSim

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Re: Fun times in Syria
« Reply #35 on: August 31, 2013, 02:36:16 pm »
Every news article I've read, watched, or heard has made it clear that there's no interest in an invasion. What's being discussed is airstrikes like those conducted a few years ago in Libya.

President Obama said Saturday that the United States has decided to use military force against Syria, saying last week’s alleged chemical weapons attack there was “an attack on human dignity,” but that he has decided to seek congressional authorization for such a strike.

The announcement appeared to put off an imminent cruise missile attack on Syria and opens the door to what will almost certainly be a contentious and protracted debate.
The Washington Post

President Obama stunned the capital and paused his march to war on Saturday by asking Congress to give him authorization before he launches a limited military strike against the Syrian government in retaliation for a chemical weapons attack.
The New York Times

There's no plan to invade. These are just limited attacks that are supposed to show the world that the use of chemical weapons isn't condoned. The attacks probably won't do much of anything except deliver that message. I don't support it, but I understand the logic behind it. But damn people, pay attention to the news.

Offline nickiknack

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Re: Fun times in Syria
« Reply #36 on: August 31, 2013, 02:40:13 pm »
Every news article I've read, watched, or heard has made it clear that there's no interest in an invasion. What's being discussed is airstrikes like those conducted a few years ago in Libya.

President Obama said Saturday that the United States has decided to use military force against Syria, saying last week’s alleged chemical weapons attack there was “an attack on human dignity,” but that he has decided to seek congressional authorization for such a strike.

The announcement appeared to put off an imminent cruise missile attack on Syria and opens the door to what will almost certainly be a contentious and protracted debate.
The Washington Post

President Obama stunned the capital and paused his march to war on Saturday by asking Congress to give him authorization before he launches a limited military strike against the Syrian government in retaliation for a chemical weapons attack.
The New York Times

There's no plan to invade. These are just limited attacks that are supposed to show the world that the use of chemical weapons isn't condoned. The attacks probably won't do much of anything except deliver that message. I don't support it, but I understand the logic behind it. But damn people, pay attention to the news.

And what's not to say it will turn into a clusterfuck somewhere down the road where troops are sent in, and we're bogged down for years to come.

Offline SimSim

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Re: Fun times in Syria
« Reply #37 on: August 31, 2013, 02:48:22 pm »
It's a civil war that's been going on for 3 years. It's already a clusterfuck, and there's been no interest in sending troops.

Offline Meshakhad

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Re: Fun times in Syria
« Reply #38 on: August 31, 2013, 03:09:20 pm »
If the West had intervened earlier, al-Nusra et al would never had gained the support they had.

Fuck yeah for this. We should have gone in at least a year ago.
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Offline SimSim

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Re: Fun times in Syria
« Reply #39 on: August 31, 2013, 04:31:10 pm »
Every news article I've read, watched, or heard has made it clear that there's no interest in an invasion. What's being discussed is airstrikes like those conducted a few years ago in Libya.

President Obama said Saturday that the United States has decided to use military force against Syria, saying last week’s alleged chemical weapons attack there was “an attack on human dignity,” but that he has decided to seek congressional authorization for such a strike.

The announcement appeared to put off an imminent cruise missile attack on Syria and opens the door to what will almost certainly be a contentious and protracted debate.
The Washington Post

President Obama stunned the capital and paused his march to war on Saturday by asking Congress to give him authorization before he launches a limited military strike against the Syrian government in retaliation for a chemical weapons attack.
The New York Times

There's no plan to invade. These are just limited attacks that are supposed to show the world that the use of chemical weapons isn't condoned. The attacks probably won't do much of anything except deliver that message. I don't support it, but I understand the logic behind it. But damn people, pay attention to the news.

And what's not to say it will turn into a clusterfuck somewhere down the road where troops are sent in, and we're bogged down for years to come.
I just realized what really bugged me about that argument. It's that regardless of what is or isn't done that argument can be used. You can use it for sending troops, you can use it for not sending troops. You can use it for making airstrikes, you can use it for not making airstrikes. You can use it for sending medical aide, you can use it for not sending medical aide. Anything can be criticized using this argument. In fact, you can even see it in this thread.

If the West had intervened earlier, al-Nusra et al would never had gained the support they had.

Offline Old Viking

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Re: Fun times in Syria
« Reply #40 on: August 31, 2013, 05:04:52 pm »
To reduce this to purely diplomatic terms, it's none of our goddamned business what they do to one another.  The Mideast has been characterized by mutual slaughter throughout history.  They're good at it.  They enjoy it.  Leave them alone.   Maybe if we looked real hard we could find some domestic problems to attend to.
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Offline Lt. Fred

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Re: Fun times in Syria
« Reply #41 on: August 31, 2013, 05:42:38 pm »
To reduce this to purely diplomatic terms, it's none of our goddamned business what they do to one another.  The Mideast has been characterized by mutual slaughter throughout history.  They're good at it.  They enjoy it.  Leave them alone.   Maybe if we looked real hard we could find some domestic problems to attend to.

Since 1917, absolutely.
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Re: Fun times in Syria
« Reply #42 on: August 31, 2013, 05:58:37 pm »
Go back further in history Fred.

Ironbite-people have been killing each other in that desert since we crawled out of the primordial ooze.

Offline Meshakhad

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Re: Fun times in Syria
« Reply #43 on: August 31, 2013, 06:03:22 pm »
Go back further in history Fred.

Ironbite-people have been killing each other in that desert since we crawled out of the primordial ooze.

What, and Europe wasn't a fucking bloodbath for about two thousand years?
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Offline Lt. Fred

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Re: Fun times in Syria
« Reply #44 on: August 31, 2013, 06:12:55 pm »
Go back further in history Fred.

Ironbite-people have been killing each other in that desert since we crawled out of the primordial ooze.

Absolutely. The Middle East of (say) 0 AD to 1916 was far less bloody than Europe or Asia in the same period, or Africa for that matter. Though the Ottomans and the Austrians fought a bunch of nasty conflicts in Europe, and also the Russians and the Ottomans, there were only a handful of wars fought internally within the Middle East, far fewer than in Europe. Almost all of them involve Persia and the Ottomans.

Obviously there was still crime and bad living conditions and such, but not a lot of organised violence. There has been a huge explosion in organised violence since 1917. Surprise surprise.

Clearly the answer is to recolonise the region.
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