Author Topic: Fun times in Syria  (Read 18617 times)

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Offline PosthumanHeresy

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Re: Fun times in Syria
« Reply #60 on: September 01, 2013, 04:56:47 am »
Are you seriously trying to stir up more of the same shit you started in the "Fairly substantial massacre in Egypt." thread?
I apologize for having a differing opinion. I forgot that conformity is required. Wait, no, I don't give a shit if people don't like that I don't agree with them.

It's not that I don't like that you disagree with the majority opinion, it's that A) we just had this debate, and B) everyone else's criticisms apparently didn't change your views whatsoever, so trying to revive this freshly-dead debate serves no purpose other than stirring shit up purely for the sake of stirring shit up. I love heated debates (even if I don't participate much), but this I find to be childishly annoying.
This is slightly different, with it being Syria instead of Egypt. Additionally, this time we're mixing in the Russia stuff as well, which is another thing that's been being debated. It's not the same thing, and in this case, I'm talking more Syria than the Middle East on a whole. Also, I've hopefully made it clear enough that it's not about race, so perhaps we'll hear better arguments rather than "That's racist!" repeatedly. I'll gladly debate this is people will stop with the bullshit calls of racism, and the attempts to prevent discussion via misuse of Godwin's Law (it's supposed to be used when you call someone a Nazi for disagreeing on the Internet, not used when a nation is systematically oppressing people and has a charismatic, power hungry leader and a nation that has seen better days but remembers and desires its former glory).
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Art Vandelay

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Re: Fun times in Syria
« Reply #61 on: September 01, 2013, 05:14:19 am »
So I suppose when people point out that such an occupation will do far more harm than good to the locals (like Iraq and Afghanistan) and be a huge burden on an economy that's only just beginning to recover from a huge recession (again, like Iraq and Afghanistan), you're just going to ignore it like last time, right?

Offline PosthumanHeresy

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Re: Fun times in Syria
« Reply #62 on: September 01, 2013, 05:16:41 am »
So I suppose when people point out that such an occupation will do far more harm than good to the locals (like Iraq and Afghanistan) and be a huge burden on an economy that's only just beginning to recover from a huge recession (again, like Iraq and Afghanistan), you're just going to ignore it like last time, right?
I could have sworn I already addressed the second point in the big post I made on this thread. Money is not as important as human lives. Additionally, I don't remember Iraq using chemical warfare on their citizens. Syria is not the same as Iraq and Afghanistan.
What I used to think was me is just a fading memory. I looked him right in the eye and said "Goodbye".
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Together as one, against all others.
- Marilyn Manson, Running To The Edge of The World

Humanity does learn from history,
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Life is too damned short for the concept of “guilty” pleasures to have any meaning.

Offline Valerius

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Re: Fun times in Syria
« Reply #63 on: September 01, 2013, 05:20:05 am »
This is slightly different, with it being Syria instead of Egypt.

Your argument in the Egypt thread was that the entire Middle East should be occupied. Since Syria and Egypt are both part of the Middle East, this distinction is irrelevant.

Additionally, this time we're mixing in the Russia stuff as well, which is another thing that's been being debated.

Yeah, but so far, your argument seems to be the same as in the Egypt thread, but with "Problem, Russia? Then fuck you!" tacked on. In other words, when Russia is considered as well, your position is still basically unchanged.

It's not the same thing, and in this case, I'm talking more Syria than the Middle East on a whole.

How is it not the same thing? It's the same "They're too barbaric to deal with their own shit, so we need to forcibly do it for them." argument, just used on slightly smaller scale.

Also, I've hopefully made it clear enough that it's not about race, so perhaps we'll hear better arguments rather than "That's racist!" repeatedly. I'll gladly debate this is people will stop with the bullshit calls of racism, and the attempts to prevent discussion via misuse of Godwin's Law (it's supposed to be used when you call someone a Nazi for disagreeing on the Internet, not used when a nation is systematically oppressing people and has a charismatic, power hungry leader and a nation that has seen better days but remembers and desires its former glory).

The first several pages of the first debate had lots of very good arguments that didn't amount to "You're being racist!" You seem to be choosing to ignore them. I somewhat agree with you about the arguments of "That's racist!" and the overuse of Godwin's Law, but starting this debate over again without those two things is still just stirring shit up for its own sake.

The last argument was basically you being a blind idealist without any thought towards pragmatism, followed by everyone else pointing out why this is bad as well arguing ideologically, and concluded by you ignoring everyone. If this turns into another debate, then I predict that this'll play out exactly the same.

Art Vandelay

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Re: Fun times in Syria
« Reply #64 on: September 01, 2013, 05:49:02 am »
So I suppose when people point out that such an occupation will do far more harm than good to the locals (like Iraq and Afghanistan) and be a huge burden on an economy that's only just beginning to recover from a huge recession (again, like Iraq and Afghanistan), you're just going to ignore it like last time, right?
I could have sworn I already addressed the second point in the big post I made on this thread. Money is not as important as human lives. Additionally, I don't remember Iraq using chemical warfare on their citizens. Syria is not the same as Iraq and Afghanistan.
Tell that to the people who'll end up losing their livelihood because the entire economy was run into the ground over your little crusade, or the soldiers who're dying for it. Not to mention, what about the first point? That occupation will only make things worse? How about you actually address that one, hmm?

Offline PosthumanHeresy

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Re: Fun times in Syria
« Reply #65 on: September 01, 2013, 06:00:24 am »
So I suppose when people point out that such an occupation will do far more harm than good to the locals (like Iraq and Afghanistan) and be a huge burden on an economy that's only just beginning to recover from a huge recession (again, like Iraq and Afghanistan), you're just going to ignore it like last time, right?
I could have sworn I already addressed the second point in the big post I made on this thread. Money is not as important as human lives. Additionally, I don't remember Iraq using chemical warfare on their citizens. Syria is not the same as Iraq and Afghanistan.
Tell that to the people who'll end up losing their livelihood because the entire economy was run into the ground over your little crusade, or the soldiers who're dying for it. Not to mention, what about the first point? That occupation will only make things worse? How about you actually address that one, hmm?
It's rather hard to address the future. Without seeing the results, you can't really say things will be worse. But, if you want my opinion on it, I doubt they will be, mainly because we won't be using chemical weapons, and civil wars are generally less stable than other things. Also, if I remember correctly, it was the unregulated madness of Wall Street that ruined the economy moreso than anything else. Now, the American government's debt comes from our wars, that is true. Additionally, regarding the soldiers, there it is again. The soldiers lives are more important than the civilians lives. Why? Soldiers die or civilians die. One of them signed up knowing the risks. Anyone in the American military now knew what they were getting into. It's not like people who signed up in 2000 and got thrown in. People signing up now were elementary schoolers when 9/11 happened. They know they're signing up in a dangerous time. Civilians, meanwhile, never were given another option. They were forced into this shit. If anything, risking the lives of those who agreed to save the lives of those who did not is the just thing, not letting people who never had another option die because people who didn't have to sign up weren't sent.
What I used to think was me is just a fading memory. I looked him right in the eye and said "Goodbye".
 - Trent Reznor, Down In It

Together as one, against all others.
- Marilyn Manson, Running To The Edge of The World

Humanity does learn from history,
sadly, they're rarely the ones in power.

Quote from: Ben Kuchera
Life is too damned short for the concept of “guilty” pleasures to have any meaning.

Art Vandelay

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Re: Fun times in Syria
« Reply #66 on: September 01, 2013, 06:17:05 am »
It's rather hard to address the future. Without seeing the results, you can't really say things will be worse. But, if you want my opinion on it, I doubt they will be, mainly because we won't be using chemical weapons, and civil wars are generally less stable than other things.
Just look at Iraq and Afghanistan. Occupation just makes things worse, that's been proven time and time again by history. Extremism goes through the fucking roof because, surprise surprise, people generally don't like foreign occupiers. Doesn't matter if it's out of colonial greed or an asininely naive white knight complex, they just don't take kindly to it. That's largely why Baghdad and Kabul are a lot more explodey right now than they were before the Americans had their way with the country.
Also, if I remember correctly, it was the unregulated madness of Wall Street that ruined the economy moreso than anything else. Now, the American government's debt comes from our wars, that is true.
I'm not saying they caused the recession, I'm saying additional wars and with it even more skyrocketing debt will make lead to a crash that makes the current recession seem like a minor hiccup,
Additionally, regarding the soldiers, there it is again. The soldiers lives are more important than the civilians lives. Why? Soldiers die or civilians die. One of them signed up knowing the risks. Anyone in the American military now knew what they were getting into. It's not like people who signed up in 2000 and got thrown in. People signing up now were elementary schoolers when 9/11 happened. They know they're signing up in a dangerous time. Civilians, meanwhile, never were given another option. They were forced into this shit. If anything, risking the lives of those who agreed to save the lives of those who did not is the just thing, not letting people who never had another option die because people who didn't have to sign up weren't sent.
Just because their job is risky is not a valid excuse to get them killed in a poorly thought out invasion. And yes, because they are American, the American government has an actual responsibility to keep them as safe as possible (naturally, this applies to other nationalities just as much). Foreigners, not so much. They're the responsibility of their own government. It doesn't matter how strongly you believe in this incredibly bleeding heart and impractical mindset of yours, that's the reality of it. A government's obligation is to its citizens. As long as there is poverty, violence and other issues at home, the government has no business playing world police.

Offline Yla

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Re: Fun times in Syria
« Reply #67 on: September 01, 2013, 06:23:12 am »
In the other thread, PHH argued for a blanket long-term occupation and nation-building.
Here he argues for a intervention of unspecified scope to stop ongoing atrocities.

Yes, that's totally the same thing. Aims, scale, scope, nope. They have a common element, so they're the same.[/sarcasm]


It's not that I don't like that you disagree with the majority opinion, it's that A) we just had this debate, and B) everyone else's criticisms apparently didn't change your views whatsoever, so trying to revive this freshly-dead debate serves no purpose other than stirring shit up purely for the sake of stirring shit up. I love heated debates (even if I don't participate much), but this I find to be childishly annoying.
It would not stir up the freshly-dead debate if you wouldn't divert to it. Every one of your arguments in this
post is making comparisons to the other thread and trying to equalize the both. You are strawmanning PHH's current arguments into his old ones.



Fred I really do have to wonder where you get your history lessons then I remembered the stunt you tried to pull a while back.
Why, is he wrong? Evidence please, instead of a generalized 'people will always fight each other'.
That said, I've stopped trying to anticipate what people around here want a while ago, I've found it makes things smoother.
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Offline Auri-El

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Re: Fun times in Syria
« Reply #68 on: September 01, 2013, 06:33:57 am »
PHH, why is the Middle East catching your attention so strongly? Subsaharan Africa has war, poverty, epidemic, famine. Southeast Asia has plenty of problems. South America. There's human trafficking going on all over the world. There's always people dying from preventable diseases, from war or starvation. Here in the U.S., we have plenty of problems, with poverty, and health-related issues. So, yes, the Middle East is particularly unstable right now. But. As long as their war stays within their own borders, it's none of our business. There are too many problems, both in America and all over the world, problems that we can actually do something about, without making even more people hate us. It's not that "oh, they're not Americans, so they don't matter." It's, why are we doing this AGAIN? Why are we intervening in another country's affairs against their wishes, AGAIN? Why are we acting like the world police, AGAIN? THAT'S why I oppose military intervention in Syria.

Offline PosthumanHeresy

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Re: Fun times in Syria
« Reply #69 on: September 01, 2013, 06:43:28 am »
It's rather hard to address the future. Without seeing the results, you can't really say things will be worse. But, if you want my opinion on it, I doubt they will be, mainly because we won't be using chemical weapons, and civil wars are generally less stable than other things.
Just look at Iraq and Afghanistan. Occupation just makes things worse, that's been proven time and time again by history. Extremism goes through the fucking roof because, surprise surprise, people generally don't like foreign occupiers. Doesn't matter if it's out of colonial greed or an asininely naive white knight complex, they just don't take kindly to it. That's largely why Baghdad and Kabul are a lot more explodey right now than they were before the Americans had their way with the country.

I'd say things are better than they were, actually. Terrorism is still an issue, true, but Saddam was in fact a bad person, and had more than a few screws loose. I'd say that while things certainly could have gone better, and the way things were done was horrid, things are actually looking up. Al-Qaeda is in shambles, real equality progress is being made, and there's one less psychotic dictator in the world.

Also, if I remember correctly, it was the unregulated madness of Wall Street that ruined the economy moreso than anything else. Now, the American government's debt comes from our wars, that is true.
I'm not saying they caused the recession, I'm saying additional wars and with it even more skyrocketing debt will make lead to a crash that makes the current recession seem like a minor hiccup.

Ahem, proof?

Additionally, regarding the soldiers, there it is again. The soldiers lives are more important than the civilians lives. Why? Soldiers die or civilians die. One of them signed up knowing the risks. Anyone in the American military now knew what they were getting into. It's not like people who signed up in 2000 and got thrown in. People signing up now were elementary schoolers when 9/11 happened. They know they're signing up in a dangerous time. Civilians, meanwhile, never were given another option. They were forced into this shit. If anything, risking the lives of those who agreed to save the lives of those who did not is the just thing, not letting people who never had another option die because people who didn't have to sign up weren't sent.
Just because their job is risky is not a valid excuse to get them killed in a poorly thought out invasion. And yes, because they are American, the American government has an actual responsibility to keep them as safe as possible (naturally, this applies to other nationalities just as much). Foreigners, not so much. They're the responsibility of their own government. It doesn't matter how strongly you believe in this incredibly bleeding heart and impractical mindset of yours, that's the reality of it. A government's obligation is to its citizens. As long as there is poverty, violence and other issues at home, the government has no business playing world police.
There will always be poverty, violence and other issues here. World peace is impossible with humans in control. Also, it's only poorly thought out if you don't, well, think it out. With good planning, it's not poorly thought out. Additionally, I'd say that that is in fact the racist mindset. No group of people should be more important than others due to their nationality. In the end, one group signed up for the job whose description involves shitty conditions and a high chance of bullet-related problems. The others were born in a bad place. One asked to be put in these situations, whether due to needing the military to pay for school, tradition, patriotism or sheer sociopathy, and the other did not. We spend more money on our military than is even remotely sane. To horde that power and let others die when they don't have to and never asked to be put in that situation is immoral as a fat man hoarding food and letting people starve to death.

PHH, why is the Middle East catching your attention so strongly? Subsaharan Africa has war, poverty, epidemic, famine. Southeast Asia has plenty of problems. South America. There's human trafficking going on all over the world. There's always people dying from preventable diseases, from war or starvation. Here in the U.S., we have plenty of problems, with poverty, and health-related issues. So, yes, the Middle East is particularly unstable right now. But. As long as their war stays within their own borders, it's none of our business. There are too many problems, both in America and all over the world, problems that we can actually do something about, without making even more people hate us. It's not that "oh, they're not Americans, so they don't matter." It's, why are we doing this AGAIN? Why are we intervening in another country's affairs against their wishes, AGAIN? Why are we acting like the world police, AGAIN? THAT'S why I oppose military intervention in Syria.
Well, we're discussing the Middle East. That's why it's what I discuss. Although not on here, I've expressed the thought that what we're doing elsewhere, especially Africa, is pointless and actually harms them, because the aid we send to Africa gets taken by warlords, making them more powerful. Additionally, we feel that there is too many problems in America because we're used to less problems. Most of the world would take all of our problems over their own problems. Also, the government of that nation is evil. I think oppressive dictators can be described as evil. It does not matter what the government of Syria wants, because, well, of course they want us to stay away. They're the bad guys here. The way I see it, the more fortunate have the obligation, not just the ability or the opportunity, but the obligation, to help the more downtrodden. I view it the same way as raising taxes on the rich. They should be required to give more to help others, because they have more to give. That goes for the first world in general, when compared to the third world, too. As a nation with the ability to remove the murderous dictatorship in charge and save thousands, we have an obligation to do so. We have the ability to help, and so, we must.
What I used to think was me is just a fading memory. I looked him right in the eye and said "Goodbye".
 - Trent Reznor, Down In It

Together as one, against all others.
- Marilyn Manson, Running To The Edge of The World

Humanity does learn from history,
sadly, they're rarely the ones in power.

Quote from: Ben Kuchera
Life is too damned short for the concept of “guilty” pleasures to have any meaning.

Offline Lt. Fred

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Re: Fun times in Syria
« Reply #70 on: September 01, 2013, 06:52:10 am »
It's quite easy to say we shouldn't intervene from the comfort of our air-conditioned homes and first world living conditions. It's quite easy for us to say "Stay out of it!" when we're not affected by that, only by going in. It's quite easy to say we should sit back when that's the beneficial option for us.

I agree that something beneficial should be done. Please identify something beneficial that could be done.
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Offline PosthumanHeresy

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Re: Fun times in Syria
« Reply #71 on: September 01, 2013, 06:58:58 am »
It's quite easy to say we shouldn't intervene from the comfort of our air-conditioned homes and first world living conditions. It's quite easy for us to say "Stay out of it!" when we're not affected by that, only by going in. It's quite easy to say we should sit back when that's the beneficial option for us.

I agree that something beneficial should be done. Please identify something beneficial that could be done.
We disagree on what would be beneficial. I think removing the madman launching chemical weapons at his own people would be beneficial. Somehow, you do not.
What I used to think was me is just a fading memory. I looked him right in the eye and said "Goodbye".
 - Trent Reznor, Down In It

Together as one, against all others.
- Marilyn Manson, Running To The Edge of The World

Humanity does learn from history,
sadly, they're rarely the ones in power.

Quote from: Ben Kuchera
Life is too damned short for the concept of “guilty” pleasures to have any meaning.

Offline ironbite

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Re: Fun times in Syria
« Reply #72 on: September 01, 2013, 07:05:46 am »
Which madman though.

Ironbite-there's more then one.

Offline PosthumanHeresy

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Re: Fun times in Syria
« Reply #73 on: September 01, 2013, 07:07:19 am »
Which madman though.

Ironbite-there's more then one.
Well, what I'm currently talking about is the government of Syria. They're the prime issue.
What I used to think was me is just a fading memory. I looked him right in the eye and said "Goodbye".
 - Trent Reznor, Down In It

Together as one, against all others.
- Marilyn Manson, Running To The Edge of The World

Humanity does learn from history,
sadly, they're rarely the ones in power.

Quote from: Ben Kuchera
Life is too damned short for the concept of “guilty” pleasures to have any meaning.

Offline Lt. Fred

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Re: Fun times in Syria
« Reply #74 on: September 01, 2013, 07:09:25 am »
It's rather hard to address the future. Without seeing the results, you can't really say things will be worse. But, if you want my opinion on it, I doubt they will be, mainly because we won't be using chemical weapons, and civil wars are generally less stable than other things.
Just look at Iraq and Afghanistan. Occupation just makes things worse, that's been proven time and time again by history. Extremism goes through the fucking roof because, surprise surprise, people generally don't like foreign occupiers. Doesn't matter if it's out of colonial greed or an asininely naive white knight complex, they just don't take kindly to it. That's largely why Baghdad and Kabul are a lot more explodey right now than they were before the Americans had their way with the country.

I'd say things are better than they were, actually. Terrorism is still an issue, true, but Saddam was in fact a bad person, and had more than a few screws loose. I'd say that while things certainly could have gone better, and the way things were done was horrid, things are actually looking up. Al-Qaeda is in shambles, real equality progress is being made, and there's one less psychotic dictator in the world.

Much worse, sadly.

It's quite easy to say we shouldn't intervene from the comfort of our air-conditioned homes and first world living conditions. It's quite easy for us to say "Stay out of it!" when we're not affected by that, only by going in. It's quite easy to say we should sit back when that's the beneficial option for us.

I agree that something beneficial should be done. Please identify something beneficial that could be done.
We disagree on what would be beneficial. I think removing the madman launching chemical weapons at his own people would be beneficial. Somehow, you do not.

I agree that Asad should be gone, all else being equal (so do most Syrians). I don't agree that Asad should be gone at all costs. Now, you posted a bunch of photos of dying children; that's great, but if we want to reduce the number of dead children, bombing isn't going to do it.
Ultimate Paragon admits to fabricating a hit piece on Politico.

http://fqa.digibase.ca/index.php?topic=6936.0

The party's name is the Democratic Party. It has been since 1830. Please spell correctly.

"The party must go wholly one way or wholly the other. It cannot face in both directions at the same time."
-FDR