Author Topic: Fun times in Syria  (Read 18168 times)

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Offline Lt. Fred

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Re: Fun times in Syria
« Reply #105 on: September 02, 2013, 08:43:30 pm »
Nonsense. No Russian leader, least of all Putin, is going to commit suicide over an irrelevant naval base.

I take it you feel that Obama is somewhat less sane and is willing to commit suicide over a bunch of foreign nationals being killed in a civil war half a world away. If Russia and America start swinging at each other there is no guarantee who would be left standing.

There is no obligation on Russia to use force in defence of Syrians. There is indeed an obligation on Obama to use force if the Russians use force in defence of the Syrians. If the Russians launch an attack on the US fleet, the US will retaliate, 100%. The Russians know this. They also know how much force Obama can drop on their heads. Therefore, the Russians will not launch an attack.


Now, I think this is still stupid. Any strike on Syria will kill loads of Syrians. It will not save them, it will kill them. US credibility is not on the line: the US has, in the last decade, shown it will use force whenever it goddamn pleases, there is no need for a future demonstration. Furthermore, there is no international norm against chemical weapons use. The US government used banned chemical weapons in Fallujah without bombing Washington or arresting anyone (also, Saddam, too).
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Offline Her3tiK

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Re: Fun times in Syria
« Reply #106 on: September 02, 2013, 08:44:38 pm »
Fun update time! The USS Nimitz Carrier Group has been rerouted from Seattle to the Red Sea. That fleet includes the USS Nimitz (duh), four destroyers, and a cruiser. This is addition to the amphibious transport ship USS San Antonio, which was rerouted to the US naval base at Crete with "no specific orders". Oh yes, we are so not going to flatten another country... >.>

So I guess we've exchanged white man's burden for first world man's burden.



Have any of you asked yourselves why the U.S. tipped its hand so blatantly and so early? I mean now Assad is just going to scatter and hide all his high value military targets in deep dark little holes in out of the way places instead of on the front lines where they are easy to hit...


...oh, wait.  ::)



Nonsense. No Russian leader, least of all Putin, is going to commit suicide over an irrelevant naval base.

I take it you feel that Obama is somewhat less sane and is willing to commit suicide over a bunch of foreign nationals being killed in a civil war half a world away. If Russia and America start swinging at each other there is no guarantee who would be left standing.
I'm inclined to agree with this. I've got a couple friends saying that Russia is a shadow of it's Cold War height. True or not, I doubt their military is a pushover, or that any ensuing conflict would be brief.
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Re: Fun times in Syria
« Reply #107 on: September 02, 2013, 08:55:09 pm »
Russia is not going to pick a fight with the US, Fred is right in that Putin isn't that fucking dumb. As was said earlier in the thread, all Russia is doing is a token show of support for their ally. It's why they've only sent two cruisers against an aircraft carrier and its support vessels. Once the US starts flinging bombs in Syria's general direction, they Russian ships will be leaving post-haste.

Offline Lt. Fred

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Re: Fun times in Syria
« Reply #108 on: September 02, 2013, 08:57:02 pm »
Russia is not going to pick a fight with the US, Fred is right in that Putin isn't that fucking dumb. As was said earlier in the thread, all Russia is doing is a token show of support for their ally. It's why they've only sent two cruisers against an aircraft carrier and its support vessels. Once the US starts flinging bombs in Syria's general direction, they Russian ships will be leaving post-haste.

That's it. It's a bluff, and not a good one. In some ways, Putin doesn't deserve the rep he's got (in other ways, he very much does).
Ultimate Paragon admits to fabricating a hit piece on Politico.

http://fqa.digibase.ca/index.php?topic=6936.0

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Offline ironbite

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Re: Fun times in Syria
« Reply #109 on: September 02, 2013, 09:00:41 pm »
To his own countrymen, Putin's the devil incarnate.  To the rest of the world, he's a big bitch.

Offline Canadian Mojo

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Re: Fun times in Syria
« Reply #110 on: September 02, 2013, 09:42:26 pm »
Nonsense. No Russian leader, least of all Putin, is going to commit suicide over an irrelevant naval base.

I take it you feel that Obama is somewhat less sane and is willing to commit suicide over a bunch of foreign nationals being killed in a civil war half a world away. If Russia and America start swinging at each other there is no guarantee who would be left standing.

There is no obligation on Russia to use force in defence of Syrians. There is indeed an obligation on Obama to use force if the Russians use force in defence of the Syrians. If the Russians launch an attack on the US fleet, the US will retaliate, 100%. The Russians know this. They also know how much force Obama can drop on their heads. Therefore, the Russians will not launch an attack.

There is no obligation on America to use force in defence of the group of Syrians they want to win either. If Russia says that it will defend the territorial sovereignty of Syria from foreign attack and puts assets in place to do so, suddenly the U.S. is the aggressor and it would be quite reasonable for Russia to shoot at any incoming planes or missiles because "all" it is doing is trying to make sure an internal conflict remains an internal conflict.

It really depends on how you want to spin it.

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Now, I think this is still stupid. Any strike on Syria will kill loads of Syrians. It will not save them, it will kill them. US credibility is not on the line: the US has, in the last decade, shown it will use force whenever it goddamn pleases, there is no need for a future demonstration. Furthermore, there is no international norm against chemical weapons use. The US government used banned chemical weapons in Fallujah without bombing Washington or arresting anyone (also, Saddam, too).

Yup I agree, it is stupid. Even if this doesn't somehow go sideways on them right now, this is not something that will help America in the future because blow-back is inevitable.

Offline Lt. Fred

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Re: Fun times in Syria
« Reply #111 on: September 02, 2013, 09:52:04 pm »
That would be a different story. If Russia put some Russian AAA in Syria, or maybe a few Russian-manned jets and told everyone "hey we totally have Russians in Syria, here here and here!" then the US couldn't do anything. They have no done so, nor will they.
Ultimate Paragon admits to fabricating a hit piece on Politico.

http://fqa.digibase.ca/index.php?topic=6936.0

The party's name is the Democratic Party. It has been since 1830. Please spell correctly.

"The party must go wholly one way or wholly the other. It cannot face in both directions at the same time."
-FDR

Offline lord gibbon

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Re: Fun times in Syria
« Reply #112 on: September 02, 2013, 10:21:41 pm »
To his own countrymen, Putin's the devil incarnate.  To the rest of the world, he's a big bitch.

Unfortunately, half the problem is that to much of Russia, Putin is Jesus. Remember, they are still smarting from losing power after the Cold War ended, and Putin is promising to take that power back.
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Offline PosthumanHeresy

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Re: Fun times in Syria
« Reply #113 on: September 02, 2013, 10:33:03 pm »
To his own countrymen, Putin's the devil incarnate.  To the rest of the world, he's a big bitch.

Unfortunately, half the problem is that to much of Russia, Putin is Jesus. Remember, they are still smarting from losing power after the Cold War ended, and Putin is promising to take that power back.
Their nation lost power recently, and they have a charismatic leader who knows exactly what went wrong, what to do and how to regain it. He allies himself with nations on the wrong side of human rights, persecutes minorities, and is the personal Jesus to a fair portion of his nation. They're swept up in nationalistic pride. Oh, and they're hosting the Olympics soon. And everyone wants to appease him. Why is it that so many liberals are so fucking blind to history? Sometimes, I'm embarrassed to be associated with it, because we want peace so badly we'll hide behind any Internet joke and piles of denial to avoid violence, which only causes more down the road. Sometimes, you need to punch the other guy in the balls BEFORE he's started attacking you, not after he's already begun firing.
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Offline starseeker

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Re: Fun times in Syria
« Reply #114 on: September 03, 2013, 06:21:30 am »
UK papers are now annoyed because the US is giving us the cold shoulder and siding up to France because we aren't being massively gung-ho about intervening in Syria. So much "but the special relationship" going around. And some good-old fashioned American and French bashers have come out of the woodwork.

Offline PosthumanHeresy

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Re: Fun times in Syria
« Reply #115 on: September 03, 2013, 06:33:28 am »
UK papers are now annoyed because the US is giving us the cold shoulder and siding up to France because we aren't being massively gung-ho about intervening in Syria. So much "but the special relationship" going around. And some good-old fashioned American and French bashers have come out of the woodwork.
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Offline Cataclysm

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Re: Fun times in Syria
« Reply #116 on: September 03, 2013, 05:00:27 pm »
http://abclocal.go.com/wpvi/story?section=news/national_world&id=9234222
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President Barack Obama won critical support from House Speaker John Boehner for a punitive strike against Syria on Tuesday and dispatched senior Cabinet officials to persuade Congress that Bashar Assad's government must be punished for a suspected chemical weapons attack the administration blames for more than 1,000 dead.

The leader of House Republicans, Boehner emerged from a meeting at the White House and said the United States has "enemies around the world that need to understand that we're not going to tolerate this type of behavior. We also have allies around the world and allies in the region who also need to know that America will be there and stand up when it's necessary."
I'd be more sympathetic if people here didn't act like they knew what they were saying when they were saying something very much wrong.

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Commenter Brendan Rizzo is an American (still living there) who really, really hates America. He used to make posts defending his country from anti-American attacks but got fed up with it all.

Offline ironbite

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Re: Fun times in Syria
« Reply #117 on: September 03, 2013, 05:03:52 pm »
A definite about face from Bohner but not surprising.

Ironbite-he knows exactly what'll happen if they don't give Obama authorization.

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Re: Fun times in Syria
« Reply #118 on: September 03, 2013, 05:40:21 pm »
A definite about face from Bohner but not surprising.

Ironbite-he knows exactly what'll happen if they don't give Obama authorization.

Good.

...

What'll happen exactly if they don't give Obama authorization?
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Offline ironbite

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Re: Fun times in Syria
« Reply #119 on: September 03, 2013, 05:48:25 pm »
The Tea Party base will eat the GOP alive.

They're still going to of course.  I mean, they're working with the Great Traitor that is Obama but this way the Democrats running against them can't pull the "They voted against giving Obama the opportunity to bomb more brown people" card.

Ironbite-all about the bombing brown people.