Author Topic: Worst Political Cartoons  (Read 1176630 times)

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Offline Sigmaleph

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Re: Worst Political Cartoons
« Reply #6900 on: April 14, 2020, 12:24:28 pm »
A) The problem is that so much of our lives is run by giant companies that are almost all horrible, to the point where if you don't want to support businesses that are evil you basically need to live in an Amish community or something.

B) It's still a logical fallacy to dismiss someone's stance because they are a hypocrite in one way or another.  If I say "Don't smoke, it's bad for you" after eating bacon, the fact that bacon is also bad doesn't mean I'm wrong to say not to smoke.

a. You say that like there's never a choice. In the cartoon, the woman in the first two panels doesn't like Apple exploiting Chinese sweatshop labor. Neither do I, which is why I've been using BlackBerry phones for years. Maybe my next one will be a Fairphone.

Foxconn, the iPhone manufacturer famous for the number of suicides at its factories, also made phones for BlackBerry. Maybe Fairphone does better, idk, but it is in fact genuinely hard to buy a smartphone that wasn't made using Chinese labour under shitty conditions.

Increasingly, smartphone ownership is in fact a requirement to participate in society (Internet access is, definitely, and I don't think non-smartphone electronics are much better re: labour conditions). So I think the point is equally apt. For most people, not paying money to a company engaged in some sort of terrible business practice you hate is not a realistic option.

I know BlackBerry phones were manufactured in China for a few years, but I don't think that's accurate, since The Good Shopping Guide gave them their top rating in human rights. As for Fairphone, I think you might find it interesting. Unfortunately, they don't sell outside Europe at the moment, but I can always buy secondhand.

And in any case, China was losing its position as "the world's smartphone manufacturer" even before the Wuhan virus.

Foxconn-BlackBerry deal. The current manufacturer of BlackBerry phones is TCL, also a Chinese corporation (with their own labour issues, ofc, see for instance). I don't know what The Good Shopping Guide bases their rankings on, they don't provide explanations or sources.

The article about shifting to Vietnam does not provide numbers for how many phones are now produced in each country, but in any case what makes you think labour conditions are any better there? Cheaper labour is specifically cited as a reason for shifting production*; usually factories can't get their labour cheaper than sweatshops by not being sweatshops, which is precisely why sweatshops exist.

*"Vietnam’s labour force is half as expensive, and seven years younger on average, than China’s." is certainly a sentence that fills me with confidence about labour conditions.
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Offline Vanto

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Re: Worst Political Cartoons
« Reply #6901 on: April 14, 2020, 04:16:24 pm »
Huh. Apparently, I stand corrected. Still, I know for a fact that my current BlackBerry was made in Canada.

As for the Vietnam thing, I think you might be making it sound worse than it is. The average age of Chinese factory workers is older than many think. IIRC, the lion's share of factory workers in China are migrant workers, and their average age is 40.2 years old. The average age of all Chinese factory workers might be younger, but it's probably not by very much. Vietnam is also one of the few countries to tie minimum wages to living wages. So cheaper labor may not necessarily mean abused workers, since Vietnam's cost of living is significantly lower than China's.
« Last Edit: April 14, 2020, 05:38:36 pm by Vanto »
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Offline Skybison

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Re: Worst Political Cartoons
« Reply #6902 on: April 14, 2020, 11:45:28 pm »
Okay Vanto, take the amount of work you've just done to figure out which phone is least evil, and apply it to every single good and service you buy.  Every store, online retailer, product and service.  Do you do that?  Is it reasonable to expect every person with a nine to five job and kids to take care of and classes to study for to do that?  Does this make things cost more in ways that might but a lot of basic goods out of reach for a lot of poor people?


Offline Cloud3514

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Re: Worst Political Cartoons
« Reply #6903 on: April 15, 2020, 02:05:31 am »
Huh. Apparently, I stand corrected. Still, I know for a fact that my current BlackBerry was made in Canada.

It's likely more accurate to say that your phone was assembled in Canada. There are still going to be components that are simply not available in bulk outside of China. Compromises have to be made in some areas. It's simply unavoidable. Does that mean that you shouldn't advocate for better labor conditions? Of course not. But it is naive to think that you can make THAT much effort for literally everything you buy. For TVs and other flatscreen monitors? There is no screen manufacturer that produces LCD and OLED screens outside of east Asia. Computer hardware? Well, surprisingly, there are a few things you can get, but most components are manufactured in Asia or Latin America. And again, a lot of those components would be more accurately described as assembled in America.

There is no ethical consumption under capitalism. This is because it's functionally impossible to live without having to support unethical practices somewhere.
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Offline Vanto

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Re: Worst Political Cartoons
« Reply #6904 on: April 25, 2020, 04:27:03 pm »
Okay Vanto, take the amount of work you've just done to figure out which phone is least evil, and apply it to every single good and service you buy.  Every store, online retailer, product and service.  Do you do that?  Is it reasonable to expect every person with a nine to five job and kids to take care of and classes to study for to do that?  Does this make things cost more in ways that might but a lot of basic goods out of reach for a lot of poor people?

I make the effort. But even though I do this, I acknowledge that it may not be feasible for everybody. Still, I think that if someone's capable of making informed and ethical choices in consumption, they should at least try.

Huh. Apparently, I stand corrected. Still, I know for a fact that my current BlackBerry was made in Canada.

It's likely more accurate to say that your phone was assembled in Canada. There are still going to be components that are simply not available in bulk outside of China. Compromises have to be made in some areas. It's simply unavoidable. Does that mean that you shouldn't advocate for better labor conditions? Of course not. But it is naive to think that you can make THAT much effort for literally everything you buy. For TVs and other flatscreen monitors? There is no screen manufacturer that produces LCD and OLED screens outside of east Asia. Computer hardware? Well, surprisingly, there are a few things you can get, but most components are manufactured in Asia or Latin America. And again, a lot of those components would be more accurately described as assembled in America.

There is no ethical consumption under capitalism. This is because it's functionally impossible to live without having to support unethical practices somewhere.

When you say "East Asia", are you including Japan and South Korea?

But you do have a point. While I think the "no ethical consumption under capitalism" soundbite is both exaggerated and overly narrow, it's true that sometimes, there is no good option. That doesn't mean you shouldn't try for the lesser evil. And there are sacrifices that can be made, like buying secondhand so you're not directly supporting exploitative practices.
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Offline Kanzenkankaku

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Re: Worst Political Cartoons
« Reply #6905 on: May 27, 2020, 12:56:29 am »
Okay Vanto, take the amount of work you've just done to figure out which phone is least evil, and apply it to every single good and service you buy.  Every store, online retailer, product and service.  Do you do that?  Is it reasonable to expect every person with a nine to five job and kids to take care of and classes to study for to do that?  Does this make things cost more in ways that might but a lot of basic goods out of reach for a lot of poor people?

There is no ethical consumption under capitalism. Or at least very, very little. Enough that it's near impossible if you aren't living off-grid.

Offline niam2023

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Re: Worst Political Cartoons
« Reply #6906 on: May 27, 2020, 03:26:12 am »
Trust me, it gets easier if you're a guy like me.
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Offline Vanto

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Re: Worst Political Cartoons
« Reply #6907 on: May 29, 2020, 12:05:10 pm »
Okay Vanto, take the amount of work you've just done to figure out which phone is least evil, and apply it to every single good and service you buy.  Every store, online retailer, product and service.  Do you do that?  Is it reasonable to expect every person with a nine to five job and kids to take care of and classes to study for to do that?  Does this make things cost more in ways that might but a lot of basic goods out of reach for a lot of poor people?

There is no ethical consumption under capitalism. Or at least very, very little. Enough that it's near impossible if you aren't living off-grid.

I've heard that song-and-dance before, and frankly, I'm not convinced for reasons I've discussed above. There are ethical options that often get overlooked.

Or is there an economic system with a greater amount of ethical consumption than capitalism?
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Offline niam2023

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Re: Worst Political Cartoons
« Reply #6908 on: May 29, 2020, 01:12:40 pm »
Why do you need to be ethical?
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Offline Tolpuddle Martyr

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Re: Worst Political Cartoons
« Reply #6909 on: June 02, 2020, 09:57:13 pm »
This is from the Aussie Murdoch paper 'The Australian.'


Offline Kanzenkankaku

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Re: Worst Political Cartoons
« Reply #6910 on: June 05, 2020, 05:33:00 am »
Okay Vanto, take the amount of work you've just done to figure out which phone is least evil, and apply it to every single good and service you buy.  Every store, online retailer, product and service.  Do you do that?  Is it reasonable to expect every person with a nine to five job and kids to take care of and classes to study for to do that?  Does this make things cost more in ways that might but a lot of basic goods out of reach for a lot of poor people?

There is no ethical consumption under capitalism. Or at least very, very little. Enough that it's near impossible if you aren't living off-grid.

I've heard that song-and-dance before, and frankly, I'm not convinced for reasons I've discussed above. There are ethical options that often get overlooked.

Or is there an economic system with a greater amount of ethical consumption than capitalism?

And WHY do they get overlooked. Because of how the system is set up. It pays big bucks to get around loopholes or use child slaves in African mines instead of actual workers that you have to like, pay money so they could actually eat and shit. Just like without protest it pays for companies to cheaply test stuff on animals that ends up hurting them, or it pays for cops to just get away with choking people to death. The profit motive means a lot of people who have the power to get away with things will do harmful actions simply because they can.

And yes, there is and there will be a more ethical system. Democratic Socialism, maybe even Anarchism and actual limited government some point in the future when its the workers that are no longer alienated and are making decisions they know will affect other people like them more directly and be disincentivized from doing things that increase the likelihood of suffering..

Offline Vanto

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Re: Worst Political Cartoons
« Reply #6911 on: June 05, 2020, 12:35:25 pm »
Okay Vanto, take the amount of work you've just done to figure out which phone is least evil, and apply it to every single good and service you buy.  Every store, online retailer, product and service.  Do you do that?  Is it reasonable to expect every person with a nine to five job and kids to take care of and classes to study for to do that?  Does this make things cost more in ways that might but a lot of basic goods out of reach for a lot of poor people?

There is no ethical consumption under capitalism. Or at least very, very little. Enough that it's near impossible if you aren't living off-grid.

I've heard that song-and-dance before, and frankly, I'm not convinced for reasons I've discussed above. There are ethical options that often get overlooked.

Or is there an economic system with a greater amount of ethical consumption than capitalism?

And WHY do they get overlooked. Because of how the system is set up. It pays big bucks to get around loopholes or use child slaves in African mines instead of actual workers that you have to like, pay money so they could actually eat and shit. Just like without protest it pays for companies to cheaply test stuff on animals that ends up hurting them, or it pays for cops to just get away with choking people to death. The profit motive means a lot of people who have the power to get away with things will do harmful actions simply because they can.

And yes, there is and there will be a more ethical system. Democratic Socialism, maybe even Anarchism and actual limited government some point in the future when its the workers that are no longer alienated and are making decisions they know will affect other people like them more directly and be disincentivized from doing things that increase the likelihood of suffering..

Sorry, but if I have to deal with the realities of how things are right now, so do you. No hypothetical systems. You (rightly) wouldn't accept the currently hypothetical, idealized version of capitalism where nobody gets exploited, after all.
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Offline SCarpelan

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Re: Worst Political Cartoons
« Reply #6912 on: June 14, 2020, 07:45:16 am »
Sorry, but if I have to deal with the realities of how things are right now, so do you. No hypothetical systems. You (rightly) wouldn't accept the currently hypothetical, idealized version of capitalism where nobody gets exploited, after all.

Vanto at middle ages:

Sorry, but if I have to deal with the realities of how things are right now, so do you. No hypothetical systems. You (rightly) wouldn't accept the currently hypothetical, idealized version of feudalism where nobody gets exploited, after all.


Short slogans like this are always generalizations. The main target of this statement is to dismantle the idea that you can make the capitalist system ethical with atomized consumer decisions. You can make decisions that do less harm an are thus morally better and less unethical but unless you completely step outside the capitalist system your consumption always supports unethical structures. Organized boycotts can have effects on a limited scale and personal lifestyle choices limit the harm you personally cause but to solve systemic problems you have to think as a politically active citizen, not as a consumer who makes choices between brands.

Offline Kanzenkankaku

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Re: Worst Political Cartoons
« Reply #6913 on: June 15, 2020, 04:12:02 am »
Okay Vanto, take the amount of work you've just done to figure out which phone is least evil, and apply it to every single good and service you buy.  Every store, online retailer, product and service.  Do you do that?  Is it reasonable to expect every person with a nine to five job and kids to take care of and classes to study for to do that?  Does this make things cost more in ways that might but a lot of basic goods out of reach for a lot of poor people?

There is no ethical consumption under capitalism. Or at least very, very little. Enough that it's near impossible if you aren't living off-grid.

I've heard that song-and-dance before, and frankly, I'm not convinced for reasons I've discussed above. There are ethical options that often get overlooked.

Or is there an economic system with a greater amount of ethical consumption than capitalism?

And WHY do they get overlooked. Because of how the system is set up. It pays big bucks to get around loopholes or use child slaves in African mines instead of actual workers that you have to like, pay money so they could actually eat and shit. Just like without protest it pays for companies to cheaply test stuff on animals that ends up hurting them, or it pays for cops to just get away with choking people to death. The profit motive means a lot of people who have the power to get away with things will do harmful actions simply because they can.

And yes, there is and there will be a more ethical system. Democratic Socialism, maybe even Anarchism and actual limited government some point in the future when its the workers that are no longer alienated and are making decisions they know will affect other people like them more directly and be disincentivized from doing things that increase the likelihood of suffering..

Sorry, but if I have to deal with the realities of how things are right now, so do you. No hypothetical systems. You (rightly) wouldn't accept the currently hypothetical, idealized version of capitalism where nobody gets exploited, after all.

Since when was wanting the world to be better Utopian horseshit? DO you unironically think that I think that all problems ever will be solved by my preferred system? Whats the point of your statement?

Offline Skybison

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Re: Worst Political Cartoons
« Reply #6914 on: July 13, 2020, 02:05:58 am »
I say we nuke Ben from orbit, it's the only way to be sure.

Better Aliens metaphor:

The Coronavirus is advancing on a vulnerable person, when the door slowly opens and Ripley enters in a mecha mask with vaccine arms and says "Get away from her you Bitch!"
« Last Edit: July 13, 2020, 02:12:07 am by Skybison »