Author Topic: Worst Political Cartoons  (Read 1043401 times)

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Offline SCarpelan

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Re: Worst Political Cartoons
« Reply #6735 on: June 17, 2019, 06:14:34 am »
not sure what chaos or any others here are getting ruffled about. all this ethnonationalist shit is the same thing, we're lucky so many of them are stupid and in-fight over whos "actually superior" based on whichever pseudoscientific theory each on possesses. It's all far-right shit.

If it was someone else I would have either said nothing or made a more friendly point discussing this issue. This is someone who has a history of trying to point the finger to whoever he thinks is "the other side" and remind that all extremism (= not lukewarm centrism) is equally bad, mmkay. That influences how I read his posts and where and why I think he is trying to redirect the discussion.

In this case, he completely randomly happened to remember an article about an Islamic cult when we were discussing Israeli far right's co-operation with anti-semitic far right. In my opinion it is valuable to bring up that Nation of Islam is not at all the same as the organizations that have actual institutional power they can use to put their ideology in action. While their ideas are equally awful their position makes them a distraction more than a danger. It is precisely because this is a less obvious whataboutist misdirection than his usual ones (bringing up a leftist or liberal "equivalent") that I saw it pertinent to pay attention to it.

By the way, you also missed an important point: these far-right factions might hate each other but they also co-operate when it benefits them and even when they fight each other this conflict usually empowers both of them by bringing out the tribalism in people.

Offline Chaos Undivided

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Re: Worst Political Cartoons
« Reply #6736 on: June 17, 2019, 08:12:26 pm »
But if he doesn't care how you feel, why the fuck would he bother?

This. As someone who is generally empathetic to a fault it is actually liberating to be able to not give a fuck about someone's feelings for once.

Edit: and if someone whose opinion I actually care about wants to confront me I might be bothered to dig up some of his previous incarnations' posts to show what I mean.

Any claim that can be made without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.

But guize, there's a miniscule number of domestic Islamic extremists on this chart, a fraction of those could be NoI.




Who the hell said anything about murder? The discussion was about power. You don't need institutional power to clap someone, just a gun.

Thanks for the graph, tho. I'll make good use of it.

Whiny Whatabout Centrist: BIAS! BIAS! BIAS! BIAS! WAAH THE POOR POOR NAZIS!!

Also, did you know the Nazis were National Socialists? So that's really all left-wing terrorism.


I honestly dunno if you're being facetious or legit stramanning me.

not sure what chaos or any others here are getting ruffled about. all this ethnonationalist shit is the same thing, we're lucky so many of them are stupid and in-fight over whos "actually superior" based on whichever pseudoscientific theory each on possesses. It's all far-right shit.

If it was someone else I would have either said nothing or made a more friendly point discussing this issue. This is someone who has a history of trying to point the finger to whoever he thinks is "the other side" and remind that all extremism (= not lukewarm centrism) is equally bad, mmkay.

You say that like it's self-evident. And even if it were true, that don't justify the way you reacted.

That influences how I read his posts and where and why I think he is trying to redirect the discussion.

Least you admit you're biased. That's step one.

In this case, he completely randomly happened to remember an article about an Islamic cult when we were discussing Israeli far right's co-operation with anti-semitic far right. In my opinion it is valuable to bring up that Nation of Islam is not at all the same as the organizations that have actual institutional power they can use to put their ideology in action. While their ideas are equally awful their position makes them a distraction more than a danger.

I'd like to hear what kind of "actual institutional power" avowed white supremacists have in America that the Nation of Islam doesn't.

While we're talking, you got it wrong. I found the subject interesting, so I looked into other alliances between hate groups.

It is precisely because this is a less obvious whataboutist misdirection than his usual ones (bringing up a leftist or liberal "equivalent") that I saw it pertinent to pay attention to it.

Homie, you're making a lot of claims with jack shit to back em up. How'd you like it if someone did that to you?
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Offline niam2023

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Re: Worst Political Cartoons
« Reply #6737 on: June 17, 2019, 08:41:10 pm »
"actual institutional power" - President Trump, his cabinet full of white nationalist and fascistic nutbars ("very fine people on both sides"), various police leaders and congressmen ("we need to kill out the problem"), the patriotic sheriffs group...the list goes on and on. Including our former Attorney General who said his only problem with the KKK was that they smoked weed. The only way Trump could find someone more racist and hateful than Sessions would be resurrecting Himmler.

And of course people are biased on here - we're an avowed left wing forum. Nobody can be really free of bias. By correctly reporting climate trends, you're being "biased" against current Conservative political beliefs. Which is "HOOBA HOOBA GAWD DID SAAAAAAAAY THAAAAAAAAT THERE'D BE NOOOOOOOOOOO MORE DESTRUCTION AFTAAAAAAAH THAAAAAH FLAAAAAHD!!"

As for whether I'm being facetious or strawmanning you, I'll spell it out for you; I'm impugning you, I'll keep impugning you, I'll never stop impugning you.
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Offline Kanzenkankaku

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Re: Worst Political Cartoons
« Reply #6738 on: June 17, 2019, 09:32:37 pm »
not sure what chaos or any others here are getting ruffled about. all this ethnonationalist shit is the same thing, we're lucky so many of them are stupid and in-fight over whos "actually superior" based on whichever pseudoscientific theory each on possesses. It's all far-right shit.

If it was someone else I would have either said nothing or made a more friendly point discussing this issue. This is someone who has a history of trying to point the finger to whoever he thinks is "the other side" and remind that all extremism (= not lukewarm centrism) is equally bad, mmkay. That influences how I read his posts and where and why I think he is trying to redirect the discussion.

In this case, he completely randomly happened to remember an article about an Islamic cult when we were discussing Israeli far right's co-operation with anti-semitic far right. In my opinion it is valuable to bring up that Nation of Islam is not at all the same as the organizations that have actual institutional power they can use to put their ideology in action. While their ideas are equally awful their position makes them a distraction more than a danger. It is precisely because this is a less obvious whataboutist misdirection than his usual ones (bringing up a leftist or liberal "equivalent") that I saw it pertinent to pay attention to it.

By the way, you also missed an important point: these far-right factions might hate each other but they also co-operate when it benefits them and even when they fight each other this conflict usually empowers both of them by bringing out the tribalism in people.

(just responding to emphasis since it's more important)
I agree. Thing is those alliances will never last. We should absolutely worry about and fight back their power and influence but it helps that they're all so ego driven they come to clash with each other before achieving much progress for their goals.

Even among just white supremacists you always have people being kicked out for being mixed or some ethnicity that is arbitrarily "not white" that day of the week. Like Italian or Irish or Slavic.

Offline Chaos Undivided

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Re: Worst Political Cartoons
« Reply #6739 on: June 17, 2019, 10:31:31 pm »
"actual institutional power" - President Trump, his cabinet full of white nationalist and fascistic nutbars ("very fine people on both sides"), various police leaders and congressmen ("we need to kill out the problem"), the patriotic sheriffs group...the list goes on and on. Including our former Attorney General who said his only problem with the KKK was that they smoked weed. The only way Trump could find someone more racist and hateful than Sessions would be resurrecting Himmler.

...That's it? Some quotes without context, vague mentions of "various police leaders and congressmen", and an organization I've never heard of? Let me take a crack at this.

First of all, the quotes. Politifact says Trump's "very fine people" quote was taken out of context. "We need to kill out the problem" came from the mayor of a small town in Alabama, who was talking about LGBT people (so he's certainly a homophobe, but I don't know if he's a white supremacist). And Sessions' weed remark was a joke.

And what are the "Patriotic Sheriffs"? You talking about the Constitutional Sheriffs?

But fine, maybe you're right about these people being racist. I'm inclined to think Trump's a racist, or at least willing to pander to racists. However, I was asking about avowed white supremacists.

And of course people are biased on here - we're an avowed left wing forum. Nobody can be really free of bias. By correctly reporting climate trends, you're being "biased" against current Conservative political beliefs. Which is "HOOBA HOOBA GAWD DID SAAAAAAAAY THAAAAAAAAT THERE'D BE NOOOOOOOOOOO MORE DESTRUCTION AFTAAAAAAAH THAAAAAH FLAAAAAHD!!"

Acknowledging objective, proven, established scientific fact isn't "bias".

As for whether I'm being facetious or strawmanning you, I'll spell it out for you; I'm impugning you, I'll keep impugning you, I'll never stop impugning you.

You don't have the moral high ground to impugn me, you Patrick Bateman wannabe.
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Offline The_Queen

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Re: Worst Political Cartoons
« Reply #6740 on: June 17, 2019, 11:13:44 pm »
"actual institutional power" - President Trump, his cabinet full of white nationalist and fascistic nutbars ("very fine people on both sides"), various police leaders and congressmen ("we need to kill out the problem"), the patriotic sheriffs group...the list goes on and on. Including our former Attorney General who said his only problem with the KKK was that they smoked weed. The only way Trump could find someone more racist and hateful than Sessions would be resurrecting Himmler.

...That's it? Some quotes without context, vague mentions of "various police leaders and congressmen", and an organization I've never heard of? Let me take a crack at this.

First of all, the quotes. Politifact says Trump's "very fine people" quote was taken out of context. "We need to kill out the problem" came from the mayor of a small town in Alabama, who was talking about LGBT people (so he's certainly a homophobe, but I don't know if he's a white supremacist). And Sessions' weed remark was a joke.

And what are the "Patriotic Sheriffs"? You talking about the Constitutional Sheriffs?

But fine, maybe you're right about these people being racist. I'm inclined to think Trump's a racist, or at least willing to pander to racists. However, I was asking about avowed white supremacists.

And of course people are biased on here - we're an avowed left wing forum. Nobody can be really free of bias. By correctly reporting climate trends, you're being "biased" against current Conservative political beliefs. Which is "HOOBA HOOBA GAWD DID SAAAAAAAAY THAAAAAAAAT THERE'D BE NOOOOOOOOOOO MORE DESTRUCTION AFTAAAAAAAH THAAAAAH FLAAAAAHD!!"

Acknowledging objective, proven, established scientific fact isn't "bias".

As for whether I'm being facetious or strawmanning you, I'll spell it out for you; I'm impugning you, I'll keep impugning you, I'll never stop impugning you.

You don't have the moral high ground to impugn me, you Patrick Bateman wannabe.

Of course Trump is a racist: (1) he’s admitted to playboy that he said “laziness is a trait in blacks,” (2) he was the face of the birther movement for almost a decade, (3) he lost racial discrimination cases in housing and employment in four of the last five decades, (4) the Central Park Five.
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Offline dpareja

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Re: Worst Political Cartoons
« Reply #6741 on: June 18, 2019, 12:15:27 am »
Whiny Whatabout Centrist: BIAS! BIAS! BIAS! BIAS! WAAH THE POOR POOR NAZIS!!

Also, did you know the Nazis were National Socialists? So that's really all left-wing terrorism.


I honestly dunno if you're being facetious or legit stramanning me.


https://www.snopes.com/news/2017/09/05/were-nazis-socialists/

http://ufpnews.com/leftists-who-claim-the-nazis-were-right-wing-are-lying-through-their-teeth-heres-why/

Quote
The Nazis were left-wing socialists. Yes, the National Socialist Workers Party of Germany, otherwise known as the Nazi Party, was indeed socialist and it had a lot in common with the modern left. Hitler preached class warfare, agitating the working class to resist “exploitation” by capitalists , particularly Jewish capitalists, of course. Their programs called for the nationalization of education, health care, transportation, and other major industries. They instituted and vigorously enforced a strict gun control regimen. They encouraged pornography, illegitimacy, and abortion, and they denounced Christians as right-wing fanatics. Yet a popular myth persists that the Nazis themselves were right-wing extremists. This insidious lie biases the entire political landscape today.

Quote from: Convicted felon Dinesh D'Souza
In statement after statement, Hitler could not be clearer about his socialist commitments. He said, for example, in a 1927 speech, “We are socialists. We are the enemies of today’s capitalist system of exploitation … and we are determined to destroy this system under all conditions.”
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It doesn't concern you, Sister, that kind of absolutist view of the universe? Right and wrong determined solely by a single all-knowing, all powerful being whose judgment cannot be questioned and in whose name the most horrendous acts can be sanctioned without appeal?

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Offline Chaos Undivided

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Re: Worst Political Cartoons
« Reply #6742 on: June 18, 2019, 12:24:34 am »
Whiny Whatabout Centrist: BIAS! BIAS! BIAS! BIAS! WAAH THE POOR POOR NAZIS!!

Also, did you know the Nazis were National Socialists? So that's really all left-wing terrorism.


I honestly dunno if you're being facetious or legit stramanning me.


https://www.snopes.com/news/2017/09/05/were-nazis-socialists/

http://ufpnews.com/leftists-who-claim-the-nazis-were-right-wing-are-lying-through-their-teeth-heres-why/

Quote
The Nazis were left-wing socialists. Yes, the National Socialist Workers Party of Germany, otherwise known as the Nazi Party, was indeed socialist and it had a lot in common with the modern left. Hitler preached class warfare, agitating the working class to resist “exploitation” by capitalists , particularly Jewish capitalists, of course. Their programs called for the nationalization of education, health care, transportation, and other major industries. They instituted and vigorously enforced a strict gun control regimen. They encouraged pornography, illegitimacy, and abortion, and they denounced Christians as right-wing fanatics. Yet a popular myth persists that the Nazis themselves were right-wing extremists. This insidious lie biases the entire political landscape today.

Quote from: Convicted felon Dinesh D'Souza
In statement after statement, Hitler could not be clearer about his socialist commitments. He said, for example, in a 1927 speech, “We are socialists. We are the enemies of today’s capitalist system of exploitation … and we are determined to destroy this system under all conditions.”

Yeah, I knew there were people who say the Nazis were left-wing. Their "evidence" usually amounts to the word "socialist" being in the party's formal name.
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Offline SCarpelan

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Re: Worst Political Cartoons
« Reply #6743 on: June 18, 2019, 03:06:06 am »
The only way the concern troll would admit someone might be a white supremacist is if they were recorded reciting the 14 words while making the Nazi salute. Even then, he would probably claim that they are just trolling. You know, because it is unfair to use inductive reasoning to make conclusions about anyone's motives including his.

Offline Kanzenkankaku

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Re: Worst Political Cartoons
« Reply #6744 on: June 18, 2019, 03:19:27 am »
holy shit has it really been a decade since the birther nonsense?
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Offline niam2023

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Re: Worst Political Cartoons
« Reply #6745 on: June 18, 2019, 06:18:30 am »
Yeah, it seems our very concerned man here has a thing against inductive reasoning - and of course he defends Sessions with "BUH IT WUZ A JOOOOOKE!" Its not a joke. And even if it was, it wouldn't matter.

"Very fine people" was in exactly the right context. And how about that. You're using the same defense Faux Noise uses whenever a conservative gets into trouble for racism or homophobia - It Was Taken Out of Context.

You want more names? How about Steve King. Kobach. Stephen Miller.

http://www.rightwingwatch.org/ This website has a long, long list of right wing people in power and authority. Then again, they're probably too biased for Chaos Undivided, not enough letting conservatives have say in things.

And yes, acknowledging proven scientific fact IS bias when the left wing position is "the science is clear" and the right wing position is "GAWD WILL SAAAAAAVE US!"
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Offline Tolpuddle Martyr

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Re: Worst Political Cartoons
« Reply #6746 on: June 18, 2019, 08:48:28 am »
Who the hell said anything about murder? The discussion was about power. You don't need institutional power to clap someone, just a gun.
Did Ultimate Skyfirin' Reverse Anal just imply that the capacity to commit violence is divorced from measurable power?

It goes without saying that White Supremacists do at the very least have the blessing of a federal US institutions that would rather not acknowledge their deliberate attempts to sow political terror through acts of terrorism as, y'know-terrorism who'll still slap that label on the fuckin' Animal Liberation Front.

A quick gander at the FBI's 'domestic terrorism' page shows a couple of blacks, hispanics and women one of whom is an animal liberationist-and a distinct lack of Nazis. Weird.

That is institutional power, when institutions give you a free pass.

Might even have something to do with the body count, nothing says friendly nod like the strong arm of the state refusing to call your murderous terrorism exactly that.

« Last Edit: June 18, 2019, 09:39:26 am by Tolpuddle Martyr »

Online DarkPhoenix

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Re: Worst Political Cartoons
« Reply #6747 on: June 18, 2019, 12:18:00 pm »
Yeah, it seems our very concerned man here has a thing against inductive reasoning - and of course he defends Sessions with "BUH IT WUZ A JOOOOOKE!" Its not a joke. And even if it was, it wouldn't matter.

They ALWAYS say "It was a joke!" when called out on their BS.  Because there's a group of morons out there who BUY IT every time a major right figure counters with "It was a joke!"

Offline Chaos Undivided

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Re: Worst Political Cartoons
« Reply #6748 on: June 18, 2019, 05:29:32 pm »
The only way the concern troll would admit someone might be a white supremacist is if they were recorded reciting the 14 words while making the Nazi salute. Even then, he would probably claim that they are just trolling. You know, because it is unfair to use inductive reasoning to make conclusions about anyone's motives including his.

Assuming the worst of somebody you disagree with based on nothing more than your own biases ain't "inductive reasoning".

Yeah, it seems our very concerned man here has a thing against inductive reasoning - and of course he defends Sessions with "BUH IT WUZ A JOOOOOKE!" Its not a joke. And even if it was, it wouldn't matter.

"Very fine people" was in exactly the right context. And how about that. You're using the same defense Faux Noise uses whenever a conservative gets into trouble for racism or homophobia - It Was Taken Out of Context.

No offense, but I think I'll trust Politifact over an admitted sociopath.

You want more names? How about Steve King. Kobach. Stephen Miller.

OK, now THOSE GUYS (at least Kobach and King) are white supremacists. But I still wouldn't say this means white supremacists have institutional power the Nation of Islam lacks. We cannot ignore Farrakhan's connections with prominent, high-ranking political figures. Or the fact that the Nation of Islam gets funding from the federal government.

Who the hell said anything about murder? The discussion was about power. You don't need institutional power to clap someone, just a gun.
Did Ultimate Skyfirin' Reverse Anal just imply that the capacity to commit violence is divorced from measurable power?

No, I said you don't need institutional power to kill someone.

It goes without saying that White Supremacists do at the very least have the blessing of a federal US institutions that would rather not acknowledge their deliberate attempts to sow political terror through acts of terrorism as, y'know-terrorism who'll still slap that label on the fuckin' Animal Liberation Front.

Well, I'd say you're not completely wrong. But saying they "have the blessing of a federal US institutions [sic]" is a massive stretch. Just because they're not specifically called terrorists or charged with terrorism doesn't mean the FBI approves of them. And you may not be aware of the difficulties the FBI faces when it comes to using the label domestic terrorism.

A quick gander at the FBI's 'domestic terrorism' page shows a couple of blacks, hispanics and women one of whom is an animal liberationist-and a distinct lack of Nazis. Weird.

That's a page for domestic terrorists considered to be at large, not domestic terrorists in general. And it seems like the crimes that got them designated terrorists were committed decades ago, least for the most part.

That is institutional power, when institutions give you a free pass.

Did Dylann Storm Roof get a free pass? Did James Alex Fields?

Might even have something to do with the body count, nothing says friendly nod like the strong arm of the state refusing to call your murderous terrorism exactly that.

Did you stretch before that reach?
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Offline davedan

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Re: Worst Political Cartoons
« Reply #6749 on: June 18, 2019, 05:45:55 pm »
Dylan Roof got taken to burger king after he was arrested shooting people...