Author Topic: Judge orders man to call himself a bully  (Read 7524 times)

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Offline Barbarella

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Re: Judge orders man to call himself a bully
« Reply #30 on: April 16, 2014, 06:38:22 pm »
Next time, they should remove the hat & glasses.

Offline Lt. Fred

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Re: Judge orders man to call himself a bully
« Reply #31 on: April 17, 2014, 03:40:09 am »
Quite an effective punishment, and its not like its torture.

What evidence do you have of it being effective?

1) It isn't harmful
2) but it would deter crime.

Obviously you'd need the potential for jail as the ultimate punishment, but public humiliation seems to be a great form of correction.
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Offline Yla

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Re: Judge orders man to call himself a bully
« Reply #32 on: April 17, 2014, 04:58:57 am »
1) It isn't harmful
2) but it would deter crime.

Obviously you'd need the potential for jail as the ultimate punishment, but public humiliation seems to be a great form of correction.
Fred, seriously, he asked for evidence. That's not evidence, that's two four-word assertions followed by another sentence containing 'would' und 'seem'.
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Offline Lt. Fred

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Re: Judge orders man to call himself a bully
« Reply #33 on: April 17, 2014, 07:41:57 am »
1) It isn't harmful
2) but it would deter crime.

Obviously you'd need the potential for jail as the ultimate punishment, but public humiliation seems to be a great form of correction.
Fred, seriously, he asked for evidence. That's not evidence, that's two four-word assertions followed by another sentence containing 'would' und 'seem'.

Do you think it's harmful, or do you think it doesn't deter crime? Or both?
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Offline mellenORL

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Re: Judge orders man to call himself a bully
« Reply #34 on: April 17, 2014, 08:56:09 am »
Despite my jokingly extreme take on the sentence in a few of my posts, I do have a concern that judges are perhaps attempting some method of aversion therapy with these types of sentences. They might work teaching a young child or a teen to not bully others, but that does not mean they translate to an adult effectively. As well educated as some judges are, without a degree in psychology and clinical experience, they should refrain from prescribing or treating from the bench.

His numerous acts of trickery and weird, bizarre, raging vandalism, some acts being potentially deadly, such as using a fan to blow fuel vapors at the house, which are especially toxic to people in debilitated condition, and disgusting feces smearing, which has obvious bacterial infection risks to the disabled people in the home, by this man over the course of 15 years, warrant a professional psychiatric evaluation. Also, his habit of yelling racial slurs at the family underscores something quite a bit beyond the pale for a "bullying" charge. Maybe terroristic threats or hate crime criminal code related ethnic harassment might be more fitting charges for his actions.

I think that he's a bit too much of a perpetrator to be just publicly humiliated for a few hours, in fact, I suspect that public humiliation may turn out to spur him on to much worse acts out of a bruised and viciously bitter ego. This guy could easily prove to be a sociopath or a psychopath or just dangerously emotionally disturbed. The family is still in danger from him, it seems to me.
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Offline Sigmaleph

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Re: Judge orders man to call himself a bully
« Reply #35 on: April 17, 2014, 11:00:28 am »
Quite an effective punishment, and its not like its torture.

What evidence do you have of it being effective?

1) It isn't harmful
2) but it would deter crime.

Obviously you'd need the potential for jail as the ultimate punishment, but public humiliation seems to be a great form of correction.

There at least one person being harmed (you might argue he deserves it, but justifying harm is not the same is negating it). That's not counting the possibility that he might strongly resent the judge, the family, and the cultural norms that humiliated him and lash out even worse against them or other people.

As for deterrence, that's suspect at best. Intuitively you might think it would, but then intuitively lots of people think the death penalty is a great deterrent and it doesn't quite work out that way.

How many people will look at this case and think "Oh, that guy was a huge asshole and got a horrible punishment. Perhaps I should stop being a huge asshole, or something similar might happen to me"? Answer, I don't know, but I would expect it to be close to zero. Huge assholes generally don't think of themselves as such, and this story became news precisely because the punishment was unusual, i.e. it has not happened before, and there's a low expectation of it happening again.  Result: the target group has little to no reason to think it will happen to them personally, and thus it will have no deterrent effect.

But that's just my intuitive argument against. Without hard data, it's speculation, which is why I asked for evidence.
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Offline ironbite

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Re: Judge orders man to call himself a bully
« Reply #36 on: April 17, 2014, 11:59:49 am »
Sig, how is he being harmed?  This is his own chickens coming home to roost.  The worst that could happen is he gets laughed at.

Ironbite-so I ask again...how is he being harmed?

Offline Sigmaleph

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Re: Judge orders man to call himself a bully
« Reply #37 on: April 17, 2014, 01:15:40 pm »
Do I really need to get into another discussion about the meaning of the word "harm"? I just got past that with TIM. Anyway, re: chickens coming home to roost, I preemptively addressed that when I said

(you might argue he deserves it, but justifying harm is not the same is negating it).

Do you disagree? Then we're using the word harm to refer to different things. I mean "bad thing happening to someone". What happened to the guy was bad for him. This is not the same as saying he did not deserve it, or people should not be punished for their actions, or that I defend the abuse of children, or whatever other thing. Simply an observation of the fact that at least one party came out worse from the event.
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Offline Lt. Fred

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Re: Judge orders man to call himself a bully
« Reply #38 on: April 17, 2014, 07:10:08 pm »
Right, so a couple of errors there.

Quite an effective punishment, and its not like its torture.

What evidence do you have of it being effective?

1) It isn't harmful
2) but it would deter crime.

Obviously you'd need the potential for jail as the ultimate punishment, but public humiliation seems to be a great form of correction.

There at least one person being harmed (you might argue he deserves it, but justifying harm is not the same is negating it).

The punishment itself does not cause harm. It doesn't take him away from family and friends or socialise him into a criminal or execute him. This is a legitimate factor to consider. The deterrent effect of a punishment should be weighed against the harm it causes - and, obviously, sometimes you have to harm the guilty anyway, but for minor charges like this not so much.

What is the baseline sort of punishment for this sort of offence? Either a fine or community service or at the very worst a brief suspended sentence. Public humiliation is not and has not been used as an alternative to imprisonment.

Quote
As for deterrence, that's suspect at best. Intuitively you might think it would, but then intuitively lots of people think the death penalty is a great deterrent and it doesn't quite work out that way.

The death penalty is an effective deterrent. No reasonable person in their right mind would commit a capital offence in the US. It's no more effective than life in a US prison, but it's more of a deterrent than no punishment. Before you leap to the suggestion that this is an illegitimate goal - stopping reasonable people from committing crimes - I'd like to point out that it has in fact been by far the most successful achievement of law. Almost all law is based primarily on preventing them, because it is possible to do so.

Quote
How many people will look at this case and think "Oh, that guy was a huge asshole and got a horrible punishment. Perhaps I should stop being a huge asshole, or something similar might happen to me"? Answer, I don't know, but I would expect it to be close to zero.

There are two groups of people:
1) People who can be deterred
2) The people you describe

Group 2) are basically write-offs. There's nothing you can do about them except throw them in prison forever when they murder someone. Do you believe that this punishment is more effective at deterring Group 1 than a fine? I do. I think that public humiliation is far more effective than modest financial punishment.
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Offline Witchyjoshy

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Re: Judge orders man to call himself a bully
« Reply #39 on: April 17, 2014, 08:55:06 pm »
Fred, I have a question.

Doesn't humiliation count as a form of harm?
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Offline Sleepy

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Re: Judge orders man to call himself a bully
« Reply #40 on: April 17, 2014, 08:59:13 pm »
Are people saying that he shouldn't be harmed? Would prison count as harm to you?
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Offline mellenORL

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Re: Judge orders man to call himself a bully
« Reply #41 on: April 17, 2014, 09:03:39 pm »
Humiliation is part of the definition of bullying. Which this guy did to that family for years. Bullying a bully might work to straighten out a kid who is still in the formative years of brain and personality development. Bullying this particular guy? Just makes him mad and vengeful.
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Offline chitoryu12

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Re: Judge orders man to call himself a bully
« Reply #42 on: April 17, 2014, 09:06:33 pm »
Are people saying that he shouldn't be harmed? Would prison count as harm to you?

Well, not getting into anything regarding punishment vs. rehabilitation....

The whole debate seems to be about whether or not this counts as cruel and unusual punishment. The "yes" side's argument hinges on humiliation and being made to publicly tell passerby of your crimes being harmful. So the current argument between them seems to be whether or not a humiliation punishment is relatively harmless. Fred seems to be trying to argue for a strict definition of "harm" that excludes this.

Of course, I'd like for someone who's asked for evidence to present evidence instead of dancing around the request.
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Offline Lt. Fred

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Re: Judge orders man to call himself a bully
« Reply #43 on: April 17, 2014, 09:24:24 pm »
Fred, I have a question.

Doesn't humiliation count as a form of harm?

Is a point, though much less than prison, or a fine. It's also a far more targeted punishment.
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Offline Witchyjoshy

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Re: Judge orders man to call himself a bully
« Reply #44 on: April 17, 2014, 09:32:14 pm »
Fred, I have a question.

Doesn't humiliation count as a form of harm?

Is a point, though much less than prison, or a fine. It's also a far more targeted punishment.

Fair enough, just wanted to establish that it's still harm.

Not saying it shouldn't happen, though.
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