War on Christianity

[rookie]

So I was thinking lately about this so called war on Christianity in the US. Obviously any country that'll let your religion, whatever that religion is, have mega churches and won't tax you on it isn't acting very warlike.  But I keep hearing from Fox News and their ilk that there is a war on Christianity.

So we know it isn't real. But they keep it up. It's easy to say those that claim it are just looking to either keep or expand their power base. And I'm sure that's part of it. But then after some thought maybe there really is a war on it. Just not exactly the war they're saying.

Culture is changing fast. SSM is rapidly becoming fact in the U.S. That was in what, the past 10 years. In that same time the legalization of marijuana. There are other things too that little by little fly in the face of organized religion.

So as the culture changes, the church becomes irrelevant. As the Boomers and the Greatest Generation age they are replaced by younger people. Little by little the older voices are drowned out in society by younger more liberal voices. And the church becomes more and more irrelevant. There are two ways the church can stay current. Either try to adapt to its changing environment or dig in its heels, double down on its positions, however you want to say it. We see they aren't evolving.

I was thinking that maybe as you become more and more irrelevant, it becomes easier to start taking things personally. That things that happen around you are actually happening to you. Take that with the fact that America loves an underdog.

Anyways I'm interested to hear what you guys have to say on the matter.

[Ultimate Paragon]

Me, I suspect that a new great awakening is coming.  One where American Christianity will change for the better.  The status quo can't last forever.  Once a newer, younger, more flexible generation takes control, nothing will be the same.

[Ironchew]

As the Boomers and the Greatest Generation age they are replaced by younger people. Little by little the older voices are drowned out in society by younger more liberal voices.

I'm not convinced that will be the case. The generations before us have been saying the same thing and they eventually realized both that their priorities change as they grow older and that people actually setting national and world policy are a tiny elite not representative of public opinion. Most millennials in the United States are anti-union and there's a strong Libertarian contingent that outright opposes progressive policy. It's not much of a stretch to imagine those ideals morphing us into a largely conservative bloc a few decades from now.

As for religion, I don't think I'll see them reach total irrelevance in my lifetime, but I do think easy access to information will do them in. Religions thrive on ignorance and the internet has been steadily hurting their numbers.

[Old Viking]

Eighty percent of our population must constitute the dumbest humans thus far produced by our species if the 20% is persecuting them.  But Christians cherish their martyr myths. And they consider disagreement with them to be an act of "war."  The hysteria that has characterized fundies during our lifetimes is caused by the realization that the structure of their beliefs is crumbling, defeated not by antipathy, but rather by knowledge.  Being attacked is not the worst of fates.  Being ignored may be. 

[Tolpuddle Martyr]

Eighty percent of our population must constitute the dumbest humans thus far produced by our species if the 20% is persecuting them.  But Christians cherish their martyr myths. And they consider disagreement with them to be an act of "war."  The hysteria that has characterized fundies during our lifetimes is caused by the realization that the structure of their beliefs is crumbling, defeated not by antipathy, but rather by knowledge.  Being attacked is not the worst of fates.  Being ignored may be.

They should be rather grateful that FSTDT exists then 

[Sylvana]

And the church becomes more and more irrelevant. There are two ways the church can stay current. Either try to adapt to its changing environment or dig in its heels, double down on its positions, however you want to say it. We see they aren't evolving.

The thing is, many churches are doing what they did in the past, and are starting to find rose tinted interpretations of doctrine that allows for the progressive changes in society, or they are evolving to accept them.

Churches have always changed with the times because at the end of the day they are a business. They used to outright support slavery as a god given right, but nowadays they will preach about the joys of "indentured servitude" and how that is a good holy thing and nothing like that awful slavery business. In a few years they will be saying similar things about the verses against same sex marriage.

Remember, as the times move on, the old priests are replaced by priests that grew up in an environment where things like same sex marriage is not only legal, but socially accepted. These are the priests that will still try to deliver messages of faith to their congregations, but will do so through their own interpretation, an interpretation shaped by the world they grew up in.

We like to demonize religion on this site and regularly make it out to me a single monolithic entity with malicious goals, but really religion is and always will be all about the people and the different beliefs, perceptions and actions of the individuals.

[rookie]

Yeah, I realize I made that mistake. True, churches are not going anywhere. And I never meant to imply that they might. If anyone got that impression, I'm sorry.

No, the Christianity isn't going anywhere. Maybe irrelevant isn't the word I'm looking for. More and more people are developing a more inclusive world view which doesn't always mesh with the Bible. I do know is happened before. Sylvana brought up slavery. And there are others I'm sure. But I've never seen it. So I'm kind of looking at a photo of right now. Who knows, maybe it is changing as we speak abs what we're seeing is the usual growing pains.

And I completely forgot about the martyr complex. Christianity is a martyr religion.

One other thing I forgot about. I live here in the very liberal east coast. And even though I've lived in the Midwest for a while my outlook had anyways been from the east coast. Maybe I'm the minority in the US. Like, I'm fairly conservative here, but in other places I'm a raving liberal. Maybe there's more issues like that?

[mellenORL]

It's the cult-like fundie mega churches, and the creepy little sociopathic outliers like WBC, that do all the screaming, which FOX gleefully drums up all over the airwaves. To question even one tenet of christo-cult dogma is an act of sedition to these congregations. Their millionaire pastors and church admins are plenty sharp about keeping membership growing, enthused, in line, and tithing. "Brain washed for Jesus" is admirable in their paradigm.

The mainstream churches stay way the fuck too quiet, maybe because they are too busy trying to do community service and maintain membership, which they are steadily losing, because the fundie mega churches just give Christianity in general a bad rep.

[Ironchew]

And the church becomes more and more irrelevant. There are two ways the church can stay current. Either try to adapt to its changing environment or dig in its heels, double down on its positions, however you want to say it. We see they aren't evolving.

The thing is, many churches are doing what they did in the past, and are starting to find rose tinted interpretations of doctrine that allows for the progressive changes in society, or they are evolving to accept them.

Churches have always changed with the times because at the end of the day they are a business. They used to outright support slavery as a god given right, but nowadays they will preach about the joys of "indentured servitude" and how that is a good holy thing and nothing like that awful slavery business. In a few years they will be saying similar things about the verses against same sex marriage.

Remember, as the times move on, the old priests are replaced by priests that grew up in an environment where things like same sex marriage is not only legal, but socially accepted. These are the priests that will still try to deliver messages of faith to their congregations, but will do so through their own interpretation, an interpretation shaped by the world they grew up in.

We like to demonize religion on this site and regularly make it out to me a single monolithic entity with malicious goals, but really religion is and always will be all about the people and the different beliefs, perceptions and actions of the individuals.

History has shown that religious groups can just as easily swing in the other direction toward oppressive fanaticism. It's the problem with having a huge tribal group that venerates a vile scripture. If Christians aren't brave enough to edit their book and break with the tribe by not calling themselves Christians anymore, their contemporary bleeding-heart interpretation of scripture doesn't have a lasting effect. All they'll be doing is convincing future generations to join Team Christ and revere a grossly immoral book, which we've seen time and time again breeds powerful fundamentalism.

I'm personally hoping this is the final decline of religion. Again, religion likely won't reach social irrelevance in my lifetime, but the nonreligious are steadily growing in number.

It's the cult-like fundie mega churches, and the creepy little sociopathic outliers like WBC, that do all the screaming, which FOX gleefully drums up all over the airwaves. To question even one tenet of christo-cult dogma is an act of sedition to these congregations. Their millionaire pastors and church admins are plenty sharp about keeping membership growing, enthused, in line, and tithing. "Brain washed for Jesus" is admirable in their paradigm.

The mainstream churches stay way the fuck too quiet, maybe because they are too busy trying to do community service and maintain membership, which they are steadily losing, because the fundie mega churches just give Christianity in general a bad rep.

Republicans would not be in power pushing their theocratic agenda without broad support from mainstream Christians. The fringe elements don't have the numbers to cast that many ballots.

[Barbarella]

Me, I suspect that a new great awakening is coming.  One where American Christianity will change for the better.  The status quo can't last forever.  Once a newer, younger, more flexible generation takes control, nothing will be the same.

I'm with you on that one. Heck, Scriptures state that things will change for the better.

First, I'll explain my worldview before I continue.....I consider myself a "ShaktaPagan". Basically I'm a Wiccan who's influenced by the Shakta (Goddess-centered branch) version of Hinduism. I'm also a Universalist/Interfaith type a person. In my ShaktaPaganism, I am also a bit of a ChristoPagan and see Christianity as a parallel to Hinduism.

God The Father is Brahma. God The Son is Vishnu & God The Holy Spirit is Shiva. My Christianity is Liberal & understands that the scriptures are just myths and metaphors with very little of a historical element...but are nonetheless valid in their message. I also believe in Universal Salvation. Even the wicked who are damned will eventually be redeemed because Hell is basically Purgatory.

I see The Book of Revelation non-literally. It has a few symbolic interpretations. First, it's about the events concerning the Roman Empire, the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 CE, etc......But it also is a book that applies to any time period at the close of a World Age and the start of another when the old paradigm & new paradigm duke it out. A lot of times, corruption reaches critical mass, then goes kablooie!

In this interpretation: ChristoFascism is "The Beast" (A false Christ). IslamoFascism is "The False Prophet" (A false Mohammed) & the world system of corrupt Big Business/Big Oil/ Military-Industrial Complex/Oligarthy/Plutocracy/etc. is "The Whore of Babylon" (Awash in wealth, power & corruption).

But, as it's written, the Beast, The False Prophet & The Whore of Babylon will all fall and, as the Nazarene stated, "The Meek ('Joe/Jane Q. Little-person') WILL inherit the Earth".

Evil may win many battles but Goodness will win the war.


Now, everything I have written here will have a lot of folks laughing at me and calling me a delusional idiot. However, I understand and accept others unbelief. Though I may appear "delusional", I do not share the mindset of the religious frums & I fully accept science and common sense. I'm on the same side as any of you who may see me as a total nut.

Also, unlike what some state, most of today's youth are Progressive. Yes, there are some Libertarians out there but both groups tend to nonetheless be Progressive at least on the social scale.....
http://thinkprogress.org/politics/2013/09/30/2696841/is-america-turning-to-the-left/
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2013/09/12/the-rise-of-the-new-new-left.html
http://www.alternet.org/story/84930/the_progressive_generation%3A_what_millennials_think_about_the_economy/
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/daylightatheism/2012/06/the-millennials-americas-secular-future/
http://www.boston.com/bostonglobe/ideas/articles/2009/11/08/why_fundamentalism_will_fail/
......what these articles state is that there is a HUGE HOPE. Thinks will change for the better, eventually. Each generation is more Progressive than the next & organized religion is getting less popular. Frummerism will do itself in. Kids are fed up with the gridlock. Kids read the news online a lot and embrace alternate media. More are embracing atheism, agnosticism & alternate non-dogmatic spirituality. With enough people pushing them, Democrats can move Leftward.

[Art Vandelay]

We had a massive upsurge in Christianity and neoconservatism since 9/11. Now we're due for the pendulum to swing the other way, and that's exactly what's happening. Given another 9/11 like event to cause people to rally around the flag, or failing that, simply enough time to pass, the overall popularity of conservatism and Christianity in general will no doubt rise again.

Really now, this cycle has been going on since politics first became a things, as well as people declaring every single short term change to be either the dawn of a glorious new age or the end of civilisation. Getting worked up over it is rather naive at best.

[Sigmaleph]

We had a massive upsurge in Christianity and neoconservatism since 9/11.

I don't think that's true. Looking at the Gallup poll numbers on religion in America*, the numbers for Christianity are softly dropping since 2001 and don't recover. 2002 is the first year 'none' breaks the double digits, after a long stretch of hovering around 8%, and from then to now it rises to 16%.

Here, have a graph:


(Christianity is the sum of Protestant, Catholic, Christian (nonspecific) and Mormon)

That's not a pendulum swing.

*Presumably where you would expect to see the greatest effects from 9/11.

[Nemo]

Actually, Ironchew, Republicans aren't winning with the help of mainstream churches. At the national level, the Religious Right is becoming a liability fast. Yes, during the off year state elections you'll have some loons winning office. But just let them run for President. Based on patterns of American elections, the Republicans should have an advantage in the 2016 (that's just how it works, one party and the other, repeat), but if they run someone like Gordon Klingenschmidt or whatever his name is...... oh I hope they do.

[Art Vandelay]

We had a massive upsurge in Christianity and neoconservatism since 9/11.

I don't think that's true. Looking at the Gallup poll numbers on religion in America*, the numbers for Christianity are softly dropping since 2001 and don't recover. 2002 is the first year 'none' breaks the double digits, after a long stretch of hovering around 8%, and from then to now it rises to 16%.

Here, have a graph:


(Christianity is the sum of Protestant, Catholic, Christian (nonspecific) and Mormon)

That's not a pendulum swing.

*Presumably where you would expect to see the greatest effects from 9/11.

Huh, I did not know that. That is a rather nice trend, all things considered.

[Random Gal]

There's a sudden rise in Christians accompanied by a drop in "nones" in 1997-1998. Any idea what happened there?