Author Topic: Reddit Bans Coontown, Quarantines Other Communities  (Read 7801 times)

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Offline Ultimate Paragon

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Re: Reddit Bans Coontown, Quarantines Other Communities
« Reply #30 on: August 28, 2015, 04:23:37 pm »
I think I see what the problem here is. Free speech is a construct of the government. It applies to protection from government and only from government. It means that (except for cases of inciting violence, putting people in danger, copyright infringement, and slander or liable) you can say any damn fool thing you want without being arrested or otherwise penalized by the government. Like I said, I think I see the problem. You seem to believe that free speech should be a bit broader. That we should be expecting the same treatments from private entities. That may be a discussion worth having. But as it stands now, anybody who was effected by the subreddit shutting down has not had their free speech rights violated in any way. No more than if a troll gets banhammered here.

False equivalence.  They didn't ban an individual, they banned a community.  A horribly racist community, but a community nevertheless.  And their excuse for shutting it down was based on a rule so nebulously worded that you could apply it to just about anything.  Moreover, without CoonTown to act as a containment board, I've been seeing more anti-black racism elsewhere.  This means more drama, which in turn means the higher-ups have more excuses to shut down subreddits. 

Offline rookie

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Re: Reddit Bans Coontown, Quarantines Other Communities
« Reply #31 on: August 28, 2015, 10:39:07 pm »
Invest heavily and join the board then. It's still a company that still looks after its bottom dollar first and foremost.
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Offline TheL

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Re: Reddit Bans Coontown, Quarantines Other Communities
« Reply #32 on: August 31, 2015, 02:09:32 pm »
A privately owned company chose to purge horrible people off its service after they drove off the only woman keeping them there? Surely, free speech is dead!

If we don't believe in free speech for people we despise, then we don't believe in it at all.

And giving private companies the power to censor is really unwise.

*sigh* Look.  This is like someone saying, "I'll advertise my baby-sitting service!"  That person is allowed to put up signs in places where soliciting isn't banned.  But our prospective baby-sitter isn't given carte blanche to go around the nearest Wal-Mart, harassing shoppers and forcing fliers on them.

If you can access the Internet, you can express whatever views you like somewhere.  But the owners of a private website are allowed to say "Please take this sort of thing elsewhere; we don't want it on our site."  It's the exact same idea.  We live in an age in which making your own website is trivial; not only are there numerous companies that will gladly take your money to host whatever bizarre website you want, there are even websites devoted entirely to white supremacy that those assholes could join.  Nobody's shutting down Stormfront.
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Offline rookie

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Re: Reddit Bans Coontown, Quarantines Other Communities
« Reply #33 on: September 01, 2015, 09:15:08 am »
UP, I'm sorry. When I said to invest heavily in Reddit and that, I was at work and didn't have time to properly phrase a response. I'd like to do that now.

What we call free speech is indeed a construct of the government. As long as nobody was arrested for saying whatever it was, then free speech was not violated. So your issue, as far as I can tell, has nothing to do with free speech as it currently stands. Your issue, again as far as I can tell, has to do with private platforms. If I'm correct, now we're in the same page and can have the discussion you were looking for. Am I correct in that thinking?
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Quote from: davedan board=pg thread=6573 post=218058 time=1286247542
I'll stop eating beef lamb and pork the same day they start letting me eat vegetarians.

Offline Canadian Mojo

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Re: Reddit Bans Coontown, Quarantines Other Communities
« Reply #34 on: September 01, 2015, 11:25:26 am »
You might be disappointed that Reddit is no longer a bastion of unlimited free speech, but it is important to note that the standard to which you are holding it to, the U.S. constitution, has been modified, limited in scope, and outright backpedaled on, on numerous occasions.

Offline Ultimate Paragon

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Re: Reddit Bans Coontown, Quarantines Other Communities
« Reply #35 on: September 01, 2015, 11:45:42 am »
UP, I'm sorry. When I said to invest heavily in Reddit and that, I was at work and didn't have time to properly phrase a response. I'd like to do that now.

What we call free speech is indeed a construct of the government. As long as nobody was arrested for saying whatever it was, then free speech was not violated. So your issue, as far as I can tell, has nothing to do with free speech as it currently stands. Your issue, again as far as I can tell, has to do with private platforms. If I'm correct, now we're in the same page and can have the discussion you were looking for. Am I correct in that thinking?

You're right in your thinking, but wrong on your definition of free speech.  It's not just the First Amendment.

You might be disappointed that Reddit is no longer a bastion of unlimited free speech, but it is important to note that the standard to which you are holding it to, the U.S. constitution, has been modified, limited in scope, and outright backpedaled on, on numerous occasions.

That's kind of an ironic thing to say, considering you're relying on an originalist definition.  We have to keep in mind that the Bill of Rights was added to the Constitution in 1789.  How much power did private entities have back then?

Offline Canadian Mojo

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Re: Reddit Bans Coontown, Quarantines Other Communities
« Reply #36 on: September 01, 2015, 12:21:20 pm »
UP, I'm sorry. When I said to invest heavily in Reddit and that, I was at work and didn't have time to properly phrase a response. I'd like to do that now.

What we call free speech is indeed a construct of the government. As long as nobody was arrested for saying whatever it was, then free speech was not violated. So your issue, as far as I can tell, has nothing to do with free speech as it currently stands. Your issue, again as far as I can tell, has to do with private platforms. If I'm correct, now we're in the same page and can have the discussion you were looking for. Am I correct in that thinking?

You're right in your thinking, but wrong on your definition of free speech.  It's not just the First Amendment.

You might be disappointed that Reddit is no longer a bastion of unlimited free speech, but it is important to note that the standard to which you are holding it to, the U.S. constitution, has been modified, limited in scope, and outright backpedaled on, on numerous occasions.

That's kind of an ironic thing to say, considering you're relying on an originalist definition.  We have to keep in mind that the Bill of Rights was added to the Constitution in 1789.  How much power did private entities have back then?

I'm not sure I find it particularly ironic since Reddit came to the conclusion that their original idea needed some re-working in order to be able to deal with the realities of their current situation.

As for power of private entities then vs. now I suspect that at best it's a wash when you look at entities like the British East India company.

Offline Ultimate Paragon

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Re: Reddit Bans Coontown, Quarantines Other Communities
« Reply #37 on: September 01, 2015, 12:37:44 pm »
UP, I'm sorry. When I said to invest heavily in Reddit and that, I was at work and didn't have time to properly phrase a response. I'd like to do that now.

What we call free speech is indeed a construct of the government. As long as nobody was arrested for saying whatever it was, then free speech was not violated. So your issue, as far as I can tell, has nothing to do with free speech as it currently stands. Your issue, again as far as I can tell, has to do with private platforms. If I'm correct, now we're in the same page and can have the discussion you were looking for. Am I correct in that thinking?

You're right in your thinking, but wrong on your definition of free speech.  It's not just the First Amendment.

You might be disappointed that Reddit is no longer a bastion of unlimited free speech, but it is important to note that the standard to which you are holding it to, the U.S. constitution, has been modified, limited in scope, and outright backpedaled on, on numerous occasions.

That's kind of an ironic thing to say, considering you're relying on an originalist definition.  We have to keep in mind that the Bill of Rights was added to the Constitution in 1789.  How much power did private entities have back then?

I'm not sure I find it particularly ironic since Reddit came to the conclusion that their original idea needed some re-working in order to be able to deal with the realities of their current situation.

As for power of private entities then vs. now I suspect that at best it's a wash when you look at entities like the British East India company.

The British East India Company.  I was talking about America.  Maybe I should've been clearer.

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Re: Reddit Bans Coontown, Quarantines Other Communities
« Reply #38 on: September 01, 2015, 01:42:36 pm »
UP, I'm sorry. When I said to invest heavily in Reddit and that, I was at work and didn't have time to properly phrase a response. I'd like to do that now.

What we call free speech is indeed a construct of the government. As long as nobody was arrested for saying whatever it was, then free speech was not violated. So your issue, as far as I can tell, has nothing to do with free speech as it currently stands. Your issue, again as far as I can tell, has to do with private platforms. If I'm correct, now we're in the same page and can have the discussion you were looking for. Am I correct in that thinking?

You're right in your thinking, but wrong on your definition of free speech.  It's not just the First Amendment.

You might be disappointed that Reddit is no longer a bastion of unlimited free speech, but it is important to note that the standard to which you are holding it to, the U.S. constitution, has been modified, limited in scope, and outright backpedaled on, on numerous occasions.

That's kind of an ironic thing to say, considering you're relying on an originalist definition.  We have to keep in mind that the Bill of Rights was added to the Constitution in 1789.  How much power did private entities have back then?

I'm not sure I find it particularly ironic since Reddit came to the conclusion that their original idea needed some re-working in order to be able to deal with the realities of their current situation.

As for power of private entities then vs. now I suspect that at best it's a wash when you look at entities like the British East India company.

The British East India Company.  I was talking about America.  Maybe I should've been clearer.
Well in that case take your pick of American resource barons littering the history books. The BEI is just a good example because it was one of the first and most successful. In addition, at the time Britain was the global power, and thus occupied position similar to that of the current U.S. -- albeit in broad terms.

Offline niam2023

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Re: Reddit Bans Coontown, Quarantines Other Communities
« Reply #39 on: September 01, 2015, 02:47:13 pm »
I am not particularly concerned by the loss of a "quarantine" subreddit. If people are upset by the racists' presence, they can ban them from their reddits or just make it clear through group action they are not welcome.

I am not obligated to suffer the presence or speech of a racist.
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Offline Ultimate Paragon

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Re: Reddit Bans Coontown, Quarantines Other Communities
« Reply #40 on: September 01, 2015, 03:23:04 pm »
UP, I'm sorry. When I said to invest heavily in Reddit and that, I was at work and didn't have time to properly phrase a response. I'd like to do that now.

What we call free speech is indeed a construct of the government. As long as nobody was arrested for saying whatever it was, then free speech was not violated. So your issue, as far as I can tell, has nothing to do with free speech as it currently stands. Your issue, again as far as I can tell, has to do with private platforms. If I'm correct, now we're in the same page and can have the discussion you were looking for. Am I correct in that thinking?

You're right in your thinking, but wrong on your definition of free speech.  It's not just the First Amendment.

You might be disappointed that Reddit is no longer a bastion of unlimited free speech, but it is important to note that the standard to which you are holding it to, the U.S. constitution, has been modified, limited in scope, and outright backpedaled on, on numerous occasions.

That's kind of an ironic thing to say, considering you're relying on an originalist definition.  We have to keep in mind that the Bill of Rights was added to the Constitution in 1789.  How much power did private entities have back then?

I'm not sure I find it particularly ironic since Reddit came to the conclusion that their original idea needed some re-working in order to be able to deal with the realities of their current situation.

As for power of private entities then vs. now I suspect that at best it's a wash when you look at entities like the British East India company.

The British East India Company.  I was talking about America.  Maybe I should've been clearer.
Well in that case take your pick of American resource barons littering the history books. The BEI is just a good example because it was one of the first and most successful. In addition, at the time Britain was the global power, and thus occupied position similar to that of the current U.S. -- albeit in broad terms.

American resource barons really only began to emerge in the 19th Century.

I am not particularly concerned by the loss of a "quarantine" subreddit. If people are upset by the racists' presence, they can ban them from their reddits or just make it clear through group action they are not welcome.

I am not obligated to suffer the presence or speech of a racist.

Well, I am, because I'm afraid it won't stop there.

And I never said you were.

Offline niam2023

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Re: Reddit Bans Coontown, Quarantines Other Communities
« Reply #41 on: September 01, 2015, 04:00:53 pm »
Oh, oh, what is next? Will they come for the sexists?

Or is this a "you will be persecuted for being Christian" fantasy thing...
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Offline TheL

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Re: Reddit Bans Coontown, Quarantines Other Communities
« Reply #42 on: September 01, 2015, 04:32:27 pm »
Oh, oh, what is next? Will they come for the sexists?

Or is this a "you will be persecuted for being Christian" fantasy thing...

I think he's afraid that Reddit will eventually ban anyone who disagrees with them, even if their opinion has nothing to do with prejudice against another segment of humanity.

IOW, the slope isn't quite as slippery as UP thinks it is.
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Offline Ultimate Paragon

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Re: Reddit Bans Coontown, Quarantines Other Communities
« Reply #43 on: September 01, 2015, 05:01:06 pm »
Oh, oh, what is next? Will they come for the sexists?

Or is this a "you will be persecuted for being Christian" fantasy thing...

Considering a lot of the Reddit higher-ups have a rather loose and inconsistent definition of "hate sub", I'm not taking any chances.

Offline rookie

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Re: Reddit Bans Coontown, Quarantines Other Communities
« Reply #44 on: September 02, 2015, 02:28:11 am »
If free speech isn't just a government thing, and it's clearly not a business thing, and it's not really a private thing but kinda is, what else is there? Where else are you finding a right of free speech?
The difference between 0 and 1 is infinite. The difference between 1 and a million is a matter of degree. - Zack Johnson

Quote from: davedan board=pg thread=6573 post=218058 time=1286247542
I'll stop eating beef lamb and pork the same day they start letting me eat vegetarians.