France threatens to recognize Palestine

[Tolpuddle Martyr]

Again I fail to see why this is a "BAD THING".  Maybe I'm not in the right mindset of utterly contemptuous stupid but again, how is this a bad thing?

Ironbite-all I see is this gains Palestine...nothing in terms of actual aid.

It's a bad thing if, like many Israelis, you think all of old Palestine belongs to Israel.

It kind of underscores the point that there were people living there before they were turfed out and those people matter.

Israel don't play that.

[Ultimate Paragon]

Again I fail to see why this is a "BAD THING".  Maybe I'm not in the right mindset of utterly contemptuous stupid but again, how is this a bad thing?

Ironbite-all I see is this gains Palestine...nothing in terms of actual aid.

I don't think this is necessarily a bad thing either.  Just because I'm pro-Israel doesn't mean I'm anti-Palestine.

To me, this is like saying "just because I'm pro-ISIS doesn't mean I'm anti-America". Israel has been pushing for the total destruction of even the concept of a Palestinian state since their creation in 1947. To be pro-Israel is to be anti-Palestine in its entirety.

This is some r/badhistory material right here.

[Eiki-mun]

Again I fail to see why this is a "BAD THING".  Maybe I'm not in the right mindset of utterly contemptuous stupid but again, how is this a bad thing?

Ironbite-all I see is this gains Palestine...nothing in terms of actual aid.

I don't think this is necessarily a bad thing either.  Just because I'm pro-Israel doesn't mean I'm anti-Palestine.

To me, this is like saying "just because I'm pro-ISIS doesn't mean I'm anti-America". Israel has been pushing for the total destruction of even the concept of a Palestinian state since their creation in 1947. To be pro-Israel is to be anti-Palestine in its entirety.

This is some r/badhistory material right here.

If you say so.

[Tolpuddle Martyr]

Do you have an actual argument UP or just quips?

This is what David Ben Gurion said.

Everybody sees a difficulty in the question of relations between Arabs and Jews. But not everybody sees that there is no solution to this question. No solution! There is a gulf, and nothing can bridge it… We, as a nation, want this country to be ours; the Arabs, as a nation, want this country to be theirs

.

[Eiki-mun]

Thank you, Tolpuddle. I really don't have the energy to argue in any significant capacity myself.

[Ultimate Paragon]

According to this poll, the majority of Israelis support a two-state solution, but don't think it'll happen.  Look at the controversy opposition leader Isaac Herzog caused in his party when he called a two-state solution "unrealistic."  If Israel were truly opposed to a two-state solution, there wouldn't even be any controversy.

As for Ben-Gurion, in a letter to his son, he wrote:

We do not wish, we do not need to expel the Arabs and take their place. All our aspirations are built upon the assumption — proven throughout all our activity in the Land — that there is enough room in the country for ourselves and the Arabs.

Way to link to a page that undermines your argument.

[Lt. Fred]

According to this poll, the majority of Israelis support a two-state solution, but don't think it'll happen.  Look at the controversy opposition leader Isaac Herzog caused in his party when he called a two-state solution "unrealistic."  If Israel were truly opposed to a two-state solution, there wouldn't even be any controversy.

Is there any debate at all within government? The public's views are irrelevant.

[Tolpuddle Martyr]

According to this poll, the majority of Israelis support a two-state solution, but don't think it'll happen.  Look at the controversy opposition leader Isaac Herzog caused in his party when he called a two-state solution "unrealistic."  If Israel were truly opposed to a two-state solution, there wouldn't even be any controversy.

As for Ben-Gurion, in a letter to his son, he wrote:

We do not wish, we do not need to expel the Arabs and take their place. All our aspirations are built upon the assumption — proven throughout all our activity in the Land — that there is enough room in the country for ourselves and the Arabs.

Way to link to a page that undermines your argument.

Except your quote is 20/20 hindsight and mine is the mindset he went into creating the state of Israel with. Timelines matter. Also 53.5% is a small majority who favor a two state solution, the 38% who oppose it is rather substantial.

Favoring a two state solution is rather vague, favoring a two state solution only under terms that Israeli's would accept that doesn't exist currently (like not dealing with Hamas) doesn't actually count.

[Ultimate Paragon]

According to this poll, the majority of Israelis support a two-state solution, but don't think it'll happen.  Look at the controversy opposition leader Isaac Herzog caused in his party when he called a two-state solution "unrealistic."  If Israel were truly opposed to a two-state solution, there wouldn't even be any controversy.

Is there any debate at all within government? The public's views are irrelevant.

Yes, there is.  The two-state solution is a major plank in the Israeli Labor Party's platform.

According to this poll, the majority of Israelis support a two-state solution, but don't think it'll happen.  Look at the controversy opposition leader Isaac Herzog caused in his party when he called a two-state solution "unrealistic."  If Israel were truly opposed to a two-state solution, there wouldn't even be any controversy.

As for Ben-Gurion, in a letter to his son, he wrote:

We do not wish, we do not need to expel the Arabs and take their place. All our aspirations are built upon the assumption — proven throughout all our activity in the Land — that there is enough room in the country for ourselves and the Arabs.

Way to link to a page that undermines your argument.

Except your quote is 20/20 hindsight and mine is the mindset he went into creating the state of Israel with. Timelines matter.

Didn't know Israel existed in 1937.  Besides, here's what he had to say in 1920:

Under no circumstances must we touch land belonging to fellahs or worked by them. Only if a fellah leaves his place of settlement, should we offer to buy his land, at an appropriate price.

Also 53.5% is a small majority who favor a two state solution, the 38% who oppose it is rather substantial.

True, but it's proof that the Israeli people aren't necessarily against the existence of a Palestinian state.

Favoring a two state solution is rather vague,

Fair point.

favoring a two state solution only under terms that Israeli's would accept that doesn't exist currently (like not dealing with Hamas) doesn't actually count.

What are you saying here?

[Lt. Fred]

According to this poll, the majority of Israelis support a two-state solution, but don't think it'll happen.  Look at the controversy opposition leader Isaac Herzog caused in his party when he called a two-state solution "unrealistic."  If Israel were truly opposed to a two-state solution, there wouldn't even be any controversy.

Is there any debate at all within government? The public's views are irrelevant.

Yes, there is.  The two-state solution is a major plank in the Israeli Labor Party's platform.

Stated plank. In reality, Labour has never been serious about it. They started the settlement construction to ethnically cleanse the West Bank.

[Ultimate Paragon]

According to this poll, the majority of Israelis support a two-state solution, but don't think it'll happen.  Look at the controversy opposition leader Isaac Herzog caused in his party when he called a two-state solution "unrealistic."  If Israel were truly opposed to a two-state solution, there wouldn't even be any controversy.

Is there any debate at all within government? The public's views are irrelevant.

Yes, there is.  The two-state solution is a major plank in the Israeli Labor Party's platform.

Stated plank. In reality, Labour has never been serious about it. They started the settlement construction to ethnically cleanse the West Bank.

Citation?

[Lt. Fred]

According to this poll, the majority of Israelis support a two-state solution, but don't think it'll happen.  Look at the controversy opposition leader Isaac Herzog caused in his party when he called a two-state solution "unrealistic."  If Israel were truly opposed to a two-state solution, there wouldn't even be any controversy.

Is there any debate at all within government? The public's views are irrelevant.

Yes, there is.  The two-state solution is a major plank in the Israeli Labor Party's platform.

Stated plank. In reality, Labour has never been serious about it. They started the settlement construction to ethnically cleanse the West Bank.

Citation?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_settlement#Settlement_policy

In particular:

"At the presentation of the Oslo II Accord on 5 October 1995 in the Knesset, PM Yitzhak Rabin expounded the Israeli settlement policy in connection with the permanent solution to the conflict. Israel wanted "a Palestinian entity, less than a state, which will be a home to most of the Palestinian residents living in the Gaza Strip and the West Bank". It wanted to keep settlements beyond the Green Line including Ma'ale Adumim and Givat Ze'ev in East Jerusalem. Blocs of settlements should be established in the West Bank. Rabin promised not to return to the 4 June 1967 lines.[48]"

[Tolpuddle Martyr]

According to this poll, the majority of Israelis support a two-state solution, but don't think it'll happen.  Look at the controversy opposition leader Isaac Herzog caused in his party when he called a two-state solution "unrealistic."  If Israel were truly opposed to a two-state solution, there wouldn't even be any controversy.

Is there any debate at all within government? The public's views are irrelevant.

Yes, there is.  The two-state solution is a major plank in the Israeli Labor Party's platform.

According to this poll, the majority of Israelis support a two-state solution, but don't think it'll happen.  Look at the controversy opposition leader Isaac Herzog caused in his party when he called a two-state solution "unrealistic."  If Israel were truly opposed to a two-state solution, there wouldn't even be any controversy.

As for Ben-Gurion, in a letter to his son, he wrote:

We do not wish, we do not need to expel the Arabs and take their place. All our aspirations are built upon the assumption — proven throughout all our activity in the Land — that there is enough room in the country for ourselves and the Arabs.

Way to link to a page that undermines your argument.

Except your quote is 20/20 hindsight and mine is the mindset he went into creating the state of Israel with. Timelines matter.

Didn't know Israel existed in 1937.  Besides, here's what he had to say in 1920:

Under no circumstances must we touch land belonging to fellahs or worked by them. Only if a fellah leaves his place of settlement, should we offer to buy his land, at an appropriate price.

Also 53.5% is a small majority who favor a two state solution, the 38% who oppose it is rather substantial.

True, but it's proof that the Israeli people aren't necessarily against the existence of a Palestinian state.

Favoring a two state solution is rather vague,

Fair point.

favoring a two state solution only under terms that Israeli's would accept that doesn't exist currently (like not dealing with Hamas) doesn't actually count.

What are you saying here?

I'm saying that Israel has flat out refused to speak to Hamas in the past. Proposing a two state solution with a more amenable opposition than Hamas is proposing something that does not currently exist.

And yeah, that two state solution? The Israeli Labor party uses it to justify opposing international recognition of Palestine.

Wanting a two state solution but opposing any international recognition of Palestine while saying you support a two state solution is disingenuous at best.

[Ultimate Paragon]

According to this poll, the majority of Israelis support a two-state solution, but don't think it'll happen.  Look at the controversy opposition leader Isaac Herzog caused in his party when he called a two-state solution "unrealistic."  If Israel were truly opposed to a two-state solution, there wouldn't even be any controversy.

Is there any debate at all within government? The public's views are irrelevant.

Yes, there is.  The two-state solution is a major plank in the Israeli Labor Party's platform.

Stated plank. In reality, Labour has never been serious about it. They started the settlement construction to ethnically cleanse the West Bank.

Citation?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_settlement#Settlement_policy

In particular:

"At the presentation of the Oslo II Accord on 5 October 1995 in the Knesset, PM Yitzhak Rabin expounded the Israeli settlement policy in connection with the permanent solution to the conflict. Israel wanted "a Palestinian entity, less than a state, which will be a home to most of the Palestinian residents living in the Gaza Strip and the West Bank". It wanted to keep settlements beyond the Green Line including Ma'ale Adumim and Givat Ze'ev in East Jerusalem. Blocs of settlements should be established in the West Bank. Rabin promised not to return to the 4 June 1967 lines.[48]"

That was twenty years ago.  At the same time, the Democratic Party was against gays openly serving in the military.

[Ironchew]

Again I fail to see why this is a "BAD THING".  Maybe I'm not in the right mindset of utterly contemptuous stupid but again, how is this a bad thing?

Ironbite-all I see is this gains Palestine...nothing in terms of actual aid.

I don't think this is necessarily a bad thing either.  Just because I'm pro-Israel doesn't mean I'm anti-Palestine.

You're pro-war and therefore anti-Palestine.

Do you want to get put on ignore?

Huh, I didn't figure UP of all people self-censored our posts.