Author Topic: Overwatch and the rage over the "butt-pose"  (Read 9538 times)

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Offline rookie

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Re: Overwatch and the rage over the "butt-pose"
« Reply #30 on: March 31, 2016, 12:50:23 pm »
Right. But again, bringing that up during development really seems like the time to being up inconsistencies. If maybe the pose was in fact in line with the character's character, then maybe the developers would have to clarify that. And before being released seems like a great time to do that. Not after the game has been released and has been out for a while.

IB, I know his objections. I was just wondering if he'd actually say it.
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Offline Ultimate Paragon

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Re: Overwatch and the rage over the "butt-pose"
« Reply #31 on: March 31, 2016, 12:51:36 pm »
Right. But again, bringing that up during development really seems like the time to being up inconsistencies. If maybe the pose was in fact in line with the character's character, then maybe the developers would have to clarify that. And before being released seems like a great time to do that. Not after the game has been released and has been out for a while.

IB, I know his objections. I was just wondering if he'd actually say it.

Huh.  Touché.

And Ibbles, I'm not really objecting to the change itself.  Since they were planning on changing it anyway, I don't really care.

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Re: Overwatch and the rage over the "butt-pose"
« Reply #32 on: March 31, 2016, 01:11:05 pm »
If someone doesn't know for sure that it's out of character, but they feel like it probably is, it seems to me like it would be better to bring that up than to remain silent, only to say later once the game is finished, "you know, I thought that was out of character in beta, but I said nothing for some reason".
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Offline Ultimate Paragon

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Re: Overwatch and the rage over the "butt-pose"
« Reply #33 on: March 31, 2016, 01:15:02 pm »
If someone doesn't know for sure that it's out of character, but they feel like it probably is, it seems to me like it would be better to bring that up than to remain silent, only to say later once the game is finished, "you know, I thought that was out of character in beta, but I said nothing for some reason".

Good point.

Offline Askold

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Re: Overwatch and the rage over the "butt-pose"
« Reply #34 on: March 31, 2016, 01:27:13 pm »
UP?  Can you for a moment, just for a moment, imagine that a dude who is in the beta of a game might know more about the character than you do (who admitted earlier that you hadn't been following the game) is that possible?

If that's not possible, consider that since the game isn't finished yet the beta testers are being asked to try the game and say what they think about the it. It's not just looking for bugs, they are often asked how they feel about certain aspects, I know I've answered a query or two about quests in WoW addon beta. So when this one player found an aspect of the game that he wasn't comfortable with and wrote a polite rant about it Blizzard listened to the player base and even when this shit storm began they didn't just lock down the thread and are actually keeping an eye on how the players react to changes like this.
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Offline Ultimate Paragon

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Re: Overwatch and the rage over the "butt-pose"
« Reply #35 on: March 31, 2016, 03:39:19 pm »
Alright, I get you.  But I still think his reaction was overblown.  Seriously, she's just looking over her shoulder.

Offline Ironchew

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Re: Overwatch and the rage over the "butt-pose"
« Reply #36 on: March 31, 2016, 03:50:32 pm »
This thread should've been called "UP's rage over the butt-pose".

'Cuz that's what it turned into, and I bet Askold planned it out just so.
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Offline Askold

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Re: Overwatch and the rage over the "butt-pose"
« Reply #37 on: March 31, 2016, 03:53:49 pm »
No, I thought that this was really just some interesting news and was amazed that people can rage over something like this.

I agree with UP that this really is a minor detail, BUT (no pun intended) Blizzard was the one that ultimately decided that it served the character better to not have that butt pose and then some people got furious because they think that this is just pandering to SJWs and ruining the game forever or something.
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Offline Cloud3514

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Re: Overwatch and the rage over the "butt-pose"
« Reply #38 on: March 31, 2016, 03:54:49 pm »
And games get modified after release all the time.  In League of Legends, for example, the titular league was retconned away because Riot found it unnecessarily restraining.

You know, its interesting that you say this, implying that changing a game after release isn't a problem because it directly contradicts your previous statements in earlier cases like this.

Or did you forget how you were upset when Lab Zero Games removed frames of animation from Skullgirls because they didn't make the patch optional? Or when you were upset when Obsidian removed a transphobic joke from Pillars of Eternity? Or, most similarly to this case, when Capcom removed an ass-slapping victory pose from Street Fighter V?

Isn't it interesting how you can be perfectly OK with Riot changing League of Legends' entire premise because of creative freedom, but yet when a developer changes things because they, in their eyes, want to be less objectifying, they're suddenly just pandering and they need consumer approval before making the change?

Or, do I need to remind you of what you actually said about the changes made to Skullgirls? And I quote:

However, once the game hits the market, the ball's in the consumer's court.  Changing a game's established content (aside from bug fixes and the like) after it's already been sold isn't just expressing your vision, it's imposing it on your customers, unless you give them a choice in the matter.

If you're going to complain about content being removed from games, at the very least, make sure your reasoning doesn't contradict yourself.
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Offline Ultimate Paragon

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Re: Overwatch and the rage over the "butt-pose"
« Reply #39 on: March 31, 2016, 04:01:31 pm »
And games get modified after release all the time.  In League of Legends, for example, the titular league was retconned away because Riot found it unnecessarily restraining.

You know, its interesting that you say this, implying that changing a game after release isn't a problem because it directly contradicts your previous statements in earlier cases like this.

Or did you forget how you were upset when Lab Zero Games removed frames of animation from Skullgirls because they didn't make the patch optional? Or when you were upset when Obsidian removed a transphobic joke from Pillars of Eternity? Or, most similarly to this case, when Capcom removed an ass-slapping victory pose from Street Fighter V?

Isn't it interesting how you can be perfectly OK with Riot changing League of Legends' entire premise because of creative freedom, but yet when a developer changes things because they, in their eyes, want to be less objectifying, they're suddenly just pandering and they need consumer approval before making the change?

Or, do I need to remind you of what you actually said about the changes made to Skullgirls? And I quote:

However, once the game hits the market, the ball's in the consumer's court.  Changing a game's established content (aside from bug fixes and the like) after it's already been sold isn't just expressing your vision, it's imposing it on your customers, unless you give them a choice in the matter.

If you're going to complain about content being removed from games, at the very least, make sure your reasoning doesn't contradict yourself.

There's a difference between changing lore and changing the game itself.

Offline Murdin

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Re: Overwatch and the rage over the "butt-pose"
« Reply #40 on: March 31, 2016, 04:09:01 pm »
Why do people even bother trying to explain the obvious to UP, politely at that? Do you really think that he's not smart enough to figure it out by himself? Is Ironbite really the only one who has figured out what's going on here? Do I really have to do this myself?

UP is many things, but an idiot he isn't. He doesn't need to be told why a beta test is the perfect opportunity to give a creator feedback, and why said creator doesn't typically commit self-censorship by listening to and agreeing with said feedback. These are pretty much the definitions of "beta test" and "feedback". Getting those meanings from these words is pretty much immediate.  It doesn't even need to "cross his mind". He doesn't even have to actively think about it.

And that's precisely the problem. He refuses to even consider those trivial matters when he has a political opinion to defend, in any context and at any cost of his own intellectual integrity. If you're lucky, he will vaguely admit that you may have a point and then proceed to ignore it completely. It doesn't really matter to him, because his entire MO is to twist the actual situation into an imaginary one where the obvious can be discarded and his prejudices can be vindicated.

Why not just pretend that gameplay and technical matters are the only ones relevant to discuss in the context of a video game, so that anyone who has an opinion that is liable to rattle you is automatically overstepping his boundaries by virtue of even holding said opinion in the first place?
Why not just pretend that one piece of feedback, given during a period dedicated to gathering feedback, by someone who has technically been offered early access to the game for the express purpose of feedback, can immediately constitute an amount of peer pressure tantamount to censorship?
Why not just pretend that an agressive victory pose is somehow out of character for the gentle scientist UNDER THE EFFECT OF A FRENZY-TYPE ABILITY THAT LITERALLY TURNS HIM RED (that was the "point" TB was trying to make behind his unfunny sexualisation jokes, right?), that this trope affects genetically-enhanced gorillas just as much as completely gratutitous eye-candy poses affects women, and that every comment about the quantity and quality of female representation is literally Anita Sarkeesian trying to take away our naughty vidya games?

Doublethink is doubleplusgood. And just to be clear, I'm not trying to compare any particular ideology to Ingsoc here. The one thing that I'm calling Orwellian is UP's very own, very personal dishonesty. And Total Bastard's, I guess, indirectly and to a lesser extent.
« Last Edit: March 31, 2016, 04:12:26 pm by Murdin »

Offline Cloud3514

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Re: Overwatch and the rage over the "butt-pose"
« Reply #41 on: March 31, 2016, 04:10:39 pm »
And I quote (emphasis mine):

And games get modified after release all the time.  In League of Legends, for example, the titular league was retconned away because Riot found it unnecessarily restraining.

And now, suddenly, its OK and not contradictory because they only changed the lore. Yeah, I didn't buy the excuse of lore and narrative somehow not being a part of the game when you bitched about a 7.5 review of a certain game and I don't buy it now.
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Offline Askold

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Re: Overwatch and the rage over the "butt-pose"
« Reply #42 on: March 31, 2016, 04:12:23 pm »
There's a difference between changing lore and changing the game itself.

What's the difference? Because to me those two are the same. Story is very much important to me in any game.

And anyway, people change the game all the time. WoW (and othe MMOs I assume) tweak character balance all the time, introduce new stuff, get rid of old stuff and so on.
No matter what happens, no matter what my last words may end up being, I want everyone to claim that they were:
"If you strike me down, I shall become more powerful than you could possibly imagine."
Aww, you guys rock. :)  I feel the love... and the pitchforks and torches.  Tingly!

Offline ironbite

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Re: Overwatch and the rage over the "butt-pose"
« Reply #43 on: March 31, 2016, 04:15:54 pm »
Wait.....changing a victory pose is changing the game itself?

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Offline Ultimate Paragon

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Re: Overwatch and the rage over the "butt-pose"
« Reply #44 on: March 31, 2016, 04:17:55 pm »
Why do people even bother trying to explain the obvious to UP, politely at that? Do you really think that he's not smart enough to figure it out by himself? Is Ironbite really the only one who has figured out what's going on here? Do I really have to do this myself?

UP is many things, but an idiot he isn't. He doesn't need to be told why a beta test is the perfect opportunity to give a creator feedback, and why said creator doesn't typically commit self-censorship by listening to and agreeing with said feedback. These are pretty much the definitions of "beta test" and "feedback". Getting those meanings from these words is pretty much immediate.  It doesn't even need to "cross his mind". He doesn't even have to actively think about it.

You're right.  Let's see how long this lasts.

And that's precisely the problem. He refuses to even consider those trivial matters when he has a political opinion to defend, in any context and at any cost of his own intellectual integrity. If you're lucky, he will vaguely admit that you may have a point and then proceed to ignore it completely. It doesn't really matter to him, because his entire MO is to twist the actual situation into an imaginary one where the obvious can be discarded and his prejudices can be vindicated.

Aaand now you're strawmanning me.  Good job.  I'm not mad at Blizzard for changing the pose.  Quite the contrary, I feel sorry for them.  They have a PR nightmare on their hands because an employee decided to virtue-signal, leading lots of gamers to draw the wrong conclusions.

Why not just pretend that gameplay and technical matters are the only ones relevant to discuss in the context of a video game, so that anyone who has an opinion that is liable to rattle you is automatically overstepping his boundaries by virtue of even holding said opinion in the first place?

Okay, yeah, that was my bad.

Why not just pretend that one piece of feedback, given during a period dedicated to gathering feedback, by someone who has technically been offered early access to the game for the express purpose of feedback, can immediately constitute an amount of peer pressure tantamount to censorship?

I never said that.  Blizzard said they were going to change it anyway, and I believe them.

Why not just pretend that an agressive victory pose

"Aggressive?"  In Saudi Arabia, maybe, but she's literally just looking over her shoulder.  What, are you offended by the fact that she has a butt?

is somehow out of character for the gentle scientist UNDER THE EFFECT OF A FRENZY-TYPE ABILITY THAT LITERALLY TURNS HIM RED (that was the "point" TB was trying to make behind his unfunny sexualisation jokes, right?),

No it wasn't.  The point he was trying to make is that the complainer was seeing something that wasn't there.

that this trope affects genetically-enhanced gorillas just as much as completely gratutitous eye-candy poses affects women,

That was hardly a "gratuitous eye-candy pose."  Or is turning your back to the camera inherently sexual now?

and that every comment about the quantity and quality of female representation is literally Anita Sarkeesian trying to take away our naughty vidya games?

Strawmanning again.

Doublethink is doubleplusgood. And just to be clear, I'm not trying to compare any particular ideology to Ingsoc here. The one thing that I'm calling Orwellian is UP's very own, very personal dishonesty. And Total Bastard's, I guess, indirectly and to a lesser extent.

"Dishonest?"  I'm not the one putting words in other people's mouths.

Wait.....changing a victory pose is changing the game itself?

Ironbite-BWHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

Like I said, I don't care that they changed the pose.
« Last Edit: March 31, 2016, 04:29:01 pm by Ultimate Paragon »