Author Topic: Democratic Primaries Thread  (Read 7796 times)

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Offline Cloud3514

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Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
« Reply #255 on: June 14, 2020, 08:52:32 pm »
I think unprecedented Republican obstructionism did a lot of that "making things worse." Now, I'm not so naive to say it's all on the Republicans, but their plan for the entirety of Obama's presidency was do nothing, sabotage Obama trying to do things and blame Obama when nothing gets done. Again, not trying to blame the Republicans for all of Obama's failings because my point is that politics is fucking complicated. Similarly, there are a number of reasons Clinton lost in 2016 and trying to pin point an exact explanation is an exercise in futility. Because if you say it was because Obama didn't make the world better enough, I could point out that statistics show one of the biggest reasons, if not the single biggest reason, people voted for Trump was racism.

"But if we elect Biden, the next Republican will be worse than Trump!" is a rhetorical statement that can't really be argued against because it's entirely a hypothetical. Obama did not directly lead to Trump. I entirely agree that the problems with the system go far beyond Trump, but this is blaming Obama for Trump. What lead to Trump is a Republican party that has over the course of the last 40 years grown so power hungry and corrupt that they'll do literally anything if it means getting more power and a Democratic party that hasn't had the power to stop them and prioritizes honorable politics. Because it's pretty fucking hard to win political battles against the party who has consistently held more power on average since the 1990s that cheats at every chance they get. Yes, the Democrats need to stop trying to place nice, but that's small potatoes compared to everything else.

In 2018, the Democrats swept the popular vote here in Wisconsin with the exception of the State Senate. And that State Senate? The share of seats is 63-35, while the popular vote was 53-47. The State Assembly? Democrats won the popular vote 53-45, but the Republicans held 63 out of 99 seats. For the federal House? Not a single seat flipped despite the Democrats winning the popular vote 53-46. Now I'm not trying to turn this into an argument about gerrymandering. The point I'm trying to make is that the Republicans are directly responsible for most of the political issues of the country. They cheat elections, they actively oppress people, they hold themselves to way different standards than they hold the Democrats to.

If a Democrat had committed just ONE of the uncountable impeachable offenses Trump has, they would have been removed in record time. The point I'm trying to make is to show why I'm on team "vote blue no matter who," despite not being a Democrat.

Biden is not a solution. He's simply the first step unbreaking the system and needs to be seen as such. Will he? I don't fucking know. I can't see into the future and am far from the expert on the subject, but considering how successful Trump has been at throwing off anything that can hold him accountable, how do we know we'll have a chance to even TRY to fix things if he wins?
« Last Edit: June 14, 2020, 09:12:48 pm by Cloud3514 »
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Offline RavynousHunter

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Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
« Reply #256 on: June 14, 2020, 09:29:28 pm »
Dontcha just love America?  Where people can sit on their fat asses and pretend that doing nothing is some kind of noble act of defiance.

We know the system's fuckin' corrupt.  We know Biden ain't the fuckin' solution, but the key point is: we don't fuckin' have a solution.  We have a step in a good direction; maybe a small one, but a step nonetheless.  You gotta take the good you fuckin' can.  Yes, we're all eating the same shit sandwich, but at least we have the option to put some motherfucking mustard on it.
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Offline dpareja

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Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
« Reply #257 on: June 14, 2020, 11:54:32 pm »
Oh, if you want me to talk about revolutions, the US needs something far more wide-ranging than a political one. The problems with the US go back to 1787 and the only thing that's really going to address it is wholesale constitutional reform, informed by two centuries' worth of development in constitutional theory.
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Offline davedan

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Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
« Reply #258 on: June 14, 2020, 11:59:45 pm »
I have been thinking if the democrats don't win the presidency and the senate the US is basically fucked. The implosion will continue.

Offline Kanzenkankaku

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Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
« Reply #259 on: June 15, 2020, 12:13:55 am »
Please. I shouldn't have to point out when I'm making generalizations or using hyperbole. It would be absurd to assume that all Bernie supporters are applying a double standard, but that doesn't make the ones that do any less hypocritical. For my experience, with one exception who conveniently stayed quiet until I posted about it on Facebook, not one of the Bernie supporter friends I have have said anything about it, even after it was directly pointed out to them. And the one that did acknowledge it? She's very much in the "Bernie was the compromise" camp that irks for a number of reasons.

And what do I see Twitter Bernie Bros doing? Latching onto the part where Biden said he wants to put $300 million into funding reforms while happily ignoring that Bernie agrees with him almost entirely on this issue. Which is the same thing they do every time Biden says something. They take his statement out of context to make him look bad. "I would veto Medicare 4 All?" "Aim for the legs?" And these are just the tip of the iceberg.

Yes, there are Bernie supporters who are upset about Bernie for things as simple as even daring to compromise with the Democrats, but like I said, the "Bernie was the compromise" horseshit pisses me off for other reasons.

The brand of hyperbole you are engaged in is unhelpful, only leads to in-fighting. (Which is absolute gold tier irony considering all the complaints about certain bernie bros.) And the far bigger, more common problem is all of the people who paint Bernie as totally unwilling to ever compromise. People with actual power and influence push that narrative, meanwhile some basement socialists who aren't members of the media and only have clout on twitter occasionally get mad in the way you describe. Its far more productive to spend energy combating other issues and even the way you and others go about trying to convince people to vote Biden is extremely unproductive, and it can and has been done much more productively.

Offline DarkPhoenix

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Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
« Reply #260 on: June 15, 2020, 07:32:18 pm »
Obama did not directly lead to Trump.

Well, he kind of did, in that a big portion of Trump's support was driven by racism, and a lot of racists were angry that a black man managed to get elected President twice...

Offline dpareja

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Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
« Reply #261 on: June 15, 2020, 07:33:52 pm »
Obama did not directly lead to Trump.

Well, he kind of did, in that a big portion of Trump's support was driven by racism, and a lot of racists were angry that a black man managed to get elected President twice...

There weren't enough racists on their own to get Trump elected, though.

Obama didn't directly lead to Trump; the status quo which Obama largely maintained (EDIT: and to which Biden is basically promising to return; "nothing will fundamentally change") produced Trump.
Quote from: Jordan Duram
It doesn't concern you, Sister, that kind of absolutist view of the universe? Right and wrong determined solely by a single all-knowing, all powerful being whose judgment cannot be questioned and in whose name the most horrendous acts can be sanctioned without appeal?

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Being required by someone else’s religious beliefs to behave contrary to one’s sexual identity is degrading and disrespectful.

Offline Askold

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Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
« Reply #262 on: June 16, 2020, 04:22:39 am »
I can't read that in any other way than you saying that Obama lead to Trump.
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Offline dpareja

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Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
« Reply #263 on: June 16, 2020, 04:52:56 am »
I can't read that in any other way than you saying that Obama lead to Trump.

Obama maintained a status quo that predated his political career, and it was that status quo which produced Trump.

Obama led to Trump as much as Bush Jr, or Clinton, or Bush Sr, or Reagan did, or any of the many people to have been in Congressional leadership during that time, or business leaders, or any other such powerful position.
Quote from: Jordan Duram
It doesn't concern you, Sister, that kind of absolutist view of the universe? Right and wrong determined solely by a single all-knowing, all powerful being whose judgment cannot be questioned and in whose name the most horrendous acts can be sanctioned without appeal?

Quote from: Supreme Court of Canada
Being required by someone else’s religious beliefs to behave contrary to one’s sexual identity is degrading and disrespectful.

Offline Vanto

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Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
« Reply #264 on: June 16, 2020, 10:09:34 pm »
I don't think we can point to any one factor as being the cause of Trump's election. There wasn't even a "spark".
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Offline niam2023

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Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
« Reply #265 on: June 16, 2020, 10:14:45 pm »
So basically, in order to prevent another Trump, the people who by and large voted in favor of Biden as opposed to Sanders must...decide to all back Sanders or a hypothetical next populist candidate, who they didn't vote for, instead.

That just sounds so politically arrogant. "if you want to prevent another Trump, you have to admit WE ARE RIGHT AND DISCARD YOUR PREFERENCES."
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Offline dpareja

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Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
« Reply #266 on: June 16, 2020, 11:20:09 pm »
And guess what the Left is being told right now? "If you want to beat Trump now, you have to admit WE ARE RIGHT AND DISCARD YOUR PREFERENCES."

A lot of them are about as likely to say "Fuck off asshole" to that as you are to say that to the statement you made.

EDIT: Oh, and add Carter, Ford and Nixon to that list, because this goes back to Buckley v. Valeo at minimum, and that was written by a Nixon appointee.
Quote from: Jordan Duram
It doesn't concern you, Sister, that kind of absolutist view of the universe? Right and wrong determined solely by a single all-knowing, all powerful being whose judgment cannot be questioned and in whose name the most horrendous acts can be sanctioned without appeal?

Quote from: Supreme Court of Canada
Being required by someone else’s religious beliefs to behave contrary to one’s sexual identity is degrading and disrespectful.

Offline niam2023

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Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
« Reply #267 on: June 17, 2020, 12:11:01 am »
Biden WON the primary! There's a remarkable difference there. Plus that very much rings of "NO U! NO U! NO U!!"

So what? What's your great solution to this?

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Offline dpareja

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Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
« Reply #268 on: June 17, 2020, 12:38:06 am »
Biden WON the primary! There's a remarkable difference there. Plus that very much rings of "NO U! NO U! NO U!!"

So what? What's your great solution to this?

True. Biden won the primary. Sanders lost. (And it's on Sanders that he did.)

The argument was still being made nonetheless before the primary was decided, and a lot of people on the left are fed up with being told "ha ha you have to vote for this candidate you find pretty shitty because the other guy is so much worse!"

My solution? I already basically said it: the US's problems go back to 1787 and complete constitutional reform is essential, taking into account two centuries' worth of development in democratic constitutional theory. Nothing short of that will ultimately stick.
Quote from: Jordan Duram
It doesn't concern you, Sister, that kind of absolutist view of the universe? Right and wrong determined solely by a single all-knowing, all powerful being whose judgment cannot be questioned and in whose name the most horrendous acts can be sanctioned without appeal?

Quote from: Supreme Court of Canada
Being required by someone else’s religious beliefs to behave contrary to one’s sexual identity is degrading and disrespectful.

Offline Askold

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Re: Democratic Primaries Thread
« Reply #269 on: June 17, 2020, 03:10:12 am »
Honestly, one of the issues with politics in USA is that the GOP will always fall in line to support whoever is their candidate and no matter what their agenda is. Meanwhile, the Democrats have much more nuanced views and their voters have a spine so they may refuse to support people and causes that they dilike, but at the same time... The Democrats that do so, afford to do this because of the priviledged position. "What's that? The opponent is slowly removing rights from LGBT people? Sucks to be them I guess, I'm not gonna vote for someone just because they have a D next to their name."

And although for a foreigner like me, both parties have really toxic primaries (I remember seeing attack ads on this forum like 10 years ago and even back then I said that in Finnish elections something like that would not be acceptable) for some reason the Republicans will ignore these grievances as soon as the winner is decided while the Democrats will keep on splintering and losing. Don't the Democrats already hold a massive majority and only lose because of gerrymandering, voting suppression and them simply not voting? The first two issues aren't their fault but the last one is something that just seems so odd. All those people who refuse to vote for the "lesser evil" letting the country slide further and further right, despite that supposedly being against their interests.
No matter what happens, no matter what my last words may end up being, I want everyone to claim that they were:
"If you strike me down, I shall become more powerful than you could possibly imagine."
Aww, you guys rock. :)  I feel the love... and the pitchforks and torches.  Tingly!