Author Topic: Shootings in Hanau, Germany  (Read 1873 times)

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Offline Vanto

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Shootings in Hanau, Germany
« on: February 20, 2020, 06:39:07 pm »
https://www.euronews.com/2020/02/20/germany-shootings-what-we-know-about-the-hanau-attacks

The perpetrator was apparently a right-wing extremist and self-proclaimed incel who accused Trump of stealing his ideas.

And that's all the attention he should be given. We should focus on the people he killed, I'd say.
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Offline dpareja

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Re: Shootings in Hanau, Germany
« Reply #1 on: February 21, 2020, 01:38:33 am »
If more people had guns in Germany, there would have been a good guy with a gun to stop the bad guy with a gun there.
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It doesn't concern you, Sister, that kind of absolutist view of the universe? Right and wrong determined solely by a single all-knowing, all powerful being whose judgment cannot be questioned and in whose name the most horrendous acts can be sanctioned without appeal?

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Offline Vanto

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Re: Shootings in Hanau, Germany
« Reply #2 on: February 21, 2020, 02:12:17 pm »
If more people had guns in Germany, there would have been a good guy with a gun to stop the bad guy with a gun there.

Well, it depends on how close the "good guy with a gun" was. In Charleston, there was none, so Roof could kill his victims at his leisure. In Sutherland Springs, there was one who arrived during the shooting, and he drove off Kelley. In White Settlement, there was one right there, and Kinnunen's attack ended in six seconds.
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Offline dpareja

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Re: Shootings in Hanau, Germany
« Reply #3 on: February 21, 2020, 11:23:21 pm »
If more people had guns in Germany, there would have been a good guy with a gun to stop the bad guy with a gun there.

Well, it depends on how close the "good guy with a gun" was. In Charleston, there was none, so Roof could kill his victims at his leisure. In Sutherland Springs, there was one who arrived during the shooting, and he drove off Kelley. In White Settlement, there was one right there, and Kinnunen's attack ended in six seconds.

Yes, I'm aware of that. I was mocking gun-rights advocates who make that sort of argument.
Quote from: Jordan Duram
It doesn't concern you, Sister, that kind of absolutist view of the universe? Right and wrong determined solely by a single all-knowing, all powerful being whose judgment cannot be questioned and in whose name the most horrendous acts can be sanctioned without appeal?

Quote from: Supreme Court of Canada
Being required by someone else’s religious beliefs to behave contrary to one’s sexual identity is degrading and disrespectful.

Offline Skybison

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Re: Shootings in Hanau, Germany
« Reply #4 on: February 22, 2020, 01:04:07 pm »
Plus with Kelley even with the good guy with a gun he still killed more then Roof did and there have been other times like the Pulse nightclub shooting where the good guy wasn't able to stop the shooter. 

Offline Cloud3514

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Re: Shootings in Hanau, Germany
« Reply #5 on: February 25, 2020, 02:28:31 am »
The "good guy with a gun" rhetoric just flat out ignores that the shooting still happened. Whether it was stopped short or not doesn't change that. The pro-guns crowd never talks about prevention, only reaction.
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Offline dpareja

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Re: Shootings in Hanau, Germany
« Reply #6 on: February 25, 2020, 03:27:53 am »
The "good guy with a gun" rhetoric just flat out ignores that the shooting still happened. Whether it was stopped short or not doesn't change that. The pro-guns crowd never talks about prevention, only reaction.

The point the pro-gun crowd would make is that it's impossible to know how many shootings would have happened but for the possibility of the presence of a "good guy with a gun".

To which I say, look at Australia.
Quote from: Jordan Duram
It doesn't concern you, Sister, that kind of absolutist view of the universe? Right and wrong determined solely by a single all-knowing, all powerful being whose judgment cannot be questioned and in whose name the most horrendous acts can be sanctioned without appeal?

Quote from: Supreme Court of Canada
Being required by someone else’s religious beliefs to behave contrary to one’s sexual identity is degrading and disrespectful.

Offline Vanto

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Re: Shootings in Hanau, Germany
« Reply #7 on: February 25, 2020, 11:24:53 am »
Plus with Kelley even with the good guy with a gun he still killed more then Roof did and there have been other times like the Pulse nightclub shooting where the good guy wasn't able to stop the shooter.

That's because Kelley was targeting a larger group of people than Roof. Would you rather Willeford hadn't been there?

The "good guy with a gun" rhetoric just flat out ignores that the shooting still happened. Whether it was stopped short or not doesn't change that. The pro-guns crowd never talks about prevention, only reaction.

Because preventative measures don't reliably work. Chicago's gun crime statistics are proof of that.

The "good guy with a gun" rhetoric just flat out ignores that the shooting still happened. Whether it was stopped short or not doesn't change that. The pro-guns crowd never talks about prevention, only reaction.

The point the pro-gun crowd would make is that it's impossible to know how many shootings would have happened but for the possibility of the presence of a "good guy with a gun".

To which I say, look at Australia.

No offense, but if you think Australia's gun control is working... well, let's just say it's a standpoint based on a surface-level understanding of the issue.

For starters, gun-control advocates like to point to the fact that Australia's homicide rates fell after they instituted their 1996 legislation. This ignores the fact that murder rates fell all over the Western world at around that time. Correlation does not equal causation. In fact, studies have debunked the "gun control saved lives in Australia!" narrative.

Also, I'd like to point out that about that same time, many American states loosened their gun laws. You could just as easily argue that this is proof that more relaxed gun laws mean less crime using the exact same logic. But for some reason, the gun control crowd doesn't. Isn't that funny?

Second, Australia has more guns now than it did in 1996. Moreover, their gun laws have accomplished nothing, and have created a violent black market. While a lot of people tout the supposed effectiveness of Australia's gun control, Australians may be more at risk from gun violence than ever. Ben Franklin once said: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." What does that say about people who would give up liberty for the mere illusion of safety?

Lastly, even if gun control did work in Australia, that doesn't necessarily mean it would work in America.

So, if anything, what we can learn from Australia is that gun control does not work. You might as well point to 1920s America as an example of how prohibition works.
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Offline ironbite

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Re: Shootings in Hanau, Germany
« Reply #8 on: February 25, 2020, 05:07:33 pm »
Oh lovely.  Vanto's one of THOSE types of gun nuts.

Ironbite-guess he's not aware that in most of the Chicago-based gun crimes, the guns come from neighboring states like Indiana and Wisconsin.

Offline Vanto

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Re: Shootings in Hanau, Germany
« Reply #9 on: February 25, 2020, 06:09:31 pm »
Oh lovely.  Vanto's one of THOSE types of gun nuts.

Ironbite-guess he's not aware that in most of the Chicago-based gun crimes, the guns come from neighboring states like Indiana and Wisconsin.

Both of those states have lower rates of gun murder than Illinois. Not just Chicago, Illinois as a whole.
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Offline davedan

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Re: Shootings in Hanau, Germany
« Reply #10 on: February 25, 2020, 09:02:22 pm »
Plus with Kelley even with the good guy with a gun he still killed more then Roof did and there have been other times like the Pulse nightclub shooting where the good guy wasn't able to stop the shooter.

That's because Kelley was targeting a larger group of people than Roof. Would you rather Willeford hadn't been there?

The "good guy with a gun" rhetoric just flat out ignores that the shooting still happened. Whether it was stopped short or not doesn't change that. The pro-guns crowd never talks about prevention, only reaction.

Because preventative measures don't reliably work. Chicago's gun crime statistics are proof of that.

The "good guy with a gun" rhetoric just flat out ignores that the shooting still happened. Whether it was stopped short or not doesn't change that. The pro-guns crowd never talks about prevention, only reaction.

The point the pro-gun crowd would make is that it's impossible to know how many shootings would have happened but for the possibility of the presence of a "good guy with a gun".

To which I say, look at Australia.

No offense, but if you think Australia's gun control is working... well, let's just say it's a standpoint based on a surface-level understanding of the issue.

For starters, gun-control advocates like to point to the fact that Australia's homicide rates fell after they instituted their 1996 legislation. This ignores the fact that murder rates fell all over the Western world at around that time. Correlation does not equal causation. In fact, studies have debunked the "gun control saved lives in Australia!" narrative.

Also, I'd like to point out that about that same time, many American states loosened their gun laws. You could just as easily argue that this is proof that more relaxed gun laws mean less crime using the exact same logic. But for some reason, the gun control crowd doesn't. Isn't that funny?

Second, Australia has more guns now than it did in 1996. Moreover, their gun laws have accomplished nothing, and have created a violent black market. While a lot of people tout the supposed effectiveness of Australia's gun control, Australians may be more at risk from gun violence than ever. Ben Franklin once said: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." What does that say about people who would give up liberty for the mere illusion of safety?

Lastly, even if gun control did work in Australia, that doesn't necessarily mean it would work in America.

So, if anything, what we can learn from Australia is that gun control does not work. You might as well point to 1920s America as an example of how prohibition works.

Ok Paragon. Where did you find all those old links?

 'The studies have debunked the gun control saved lives in Australia' is not a link to those studies at all. All they were was a link to a journalist who reached a similar conclusion but that doesn't  disclose an actual study or a statistical analysis. Nevermind that there was a mass shooting almost every year in Australia for the years leading up to Port Arthur and that there has been only one or two in the 28 years since. Even those aren't really mass shootings where a shooter starts shooting the public but are rather unfortunately domestic violence shootings where someone wipes out more than 1 family member.

The whole narrative that only criminals have guns being a problem is silly as criminals don't usually go out and commit mass shootings. The most common and horrific mass shooters appear to be marganilised people who are otherwise not worth paying attention to until they flip and shoot a bunch of people. Career criminals are not out there shooting kids at school.

Name the last school shooting in Australia. When was it?

Name the last school shooting in Britain. When was it?

When was the last school shooting in the US? How many others happened that year? The year before?


That is not to say that there aren't cultural issues at play between different countries. The swiss for instance have a huge number of firearms for the population but low mass shootings. That is probably reflective more of the unique cultural qualities at play in Switzerland than the idea everyone should have guns.

I dare say that there are reasons, such as the sheer number of guns, which would make a gun buyback ineffective in the US. But the reality is that the US have decided it is more important that they as a society get to own guns than that their children get to go to school free from the fear of being shot.

The suggestion that isn't a choice is just obfuscation.
« Last Edit: February 25, 2020, 09:38:51 pm by davedan »

Offline niam2023

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Re: Shootings in Hanau, Germany
« Reply #11 on: February 25, 2020, 09:31:59 pm »
Don't tell me we're doing this again.

If we get two new people at once, and both say something dubious, would you then suggest BOTH OF THEM are actually Paragon?
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Offline davedan

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Re: Shootings in Hanau, Germany
« Reply #12 on: February 25, 2020, 09:37:29 pm »
Yes but I haven't been wrong yet.

But it doesn't matter to what I had to say, its just been grating on me for a while.

Offline Skybison

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Re: Shootings in Hanau, Germany
« Reply #13 on: February 26, 2020, 12:58:51 am »
Plus with Kelley even with the good guy with a gun he still killed more then Roof did and there have been other times like the Pulse nightclub shooting where the good guy wasn't able to stop the shooter.

That's because Kelley was targeting a larger group of people than Roof. Would you rather Willeford hadn't been there?

Okay that strikes me as dishonest.  You're completely dodging my point that good guys with guns don't reliably stop mass shootings.  My obviously desired option would be that Kelley not have a gun meaning there would be no need for Willeford to be there.


Offline Cloud3514

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Re: Shootings in Hanau, Germany
« Reply #14 on: February 26, 2020, 02:05:03 am »
Yes but I haven't been wrong yet.

But it doesn't matter to what I had to say, its just been grating on me for a while.

Face it, Niam, he's got a point.
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