Author Topic: Shootings in Hanau, Germany  (Read 1877 times)

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Offline Skybison

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Re: Shootings in Hanau, Germany
« Reply #30 on: March 22, 2020, 12:42:02 pm »
Well I hope you understand that when I say that I am skeptical the list is complete and ask for your source so I can look at their methodology, just saying "my source is a redditor" without even their username or a link to where they said it isn't going to make me less skeptical. 

Also I have found at least one mass shooting he missed thanks to a podcast I happened to be listening to https://canadiantruecrime.ca/episodes/2018/3/12/21-ernest-desroches So no, his list of per 91 mass shootings was not complete.

As for media coverage, you seem to have missed my point.  It's not just that there is more coverage of mass shootings today, and yes violent crime does get much more coverage today, but that the coverage is much easier to find.  Finding every incident where more then one person was shot requires a massive amount of work reading through old newspapers and missing stuff is very easy.  I've seen other people claim to have exhaustive lists of all Canadian mass murders only to find they missed some, including very big ones.

Also your redditor seems to have a very broad definition of what a mass shooting is.  Normally by Mass Shooting someone means a pseudocommando rampage, where a single angry individual goes on a shooting spree in a public setting as an act of revenge on society or terrorism.  However your redditor instead seems to define mass shooting as any incident where at least two people were shot, and as a result includes a number of incidents that don't resemble what is normally thought of as a mass shooting such as violence in families, bar fights, gang warfare, armed robberies that went wrong etc

For example redditor includes the sheddon massacre.  This was a coup d'etat in the Bandidos motorcycle gang where members where lured to a meeting in the countryside then disarmed and killed one by one, not what is usually meant by "mass shooting".

I have a hard time believing that before 1991 Canada had zero examples of incidents like the Duke of York Tavern shooting, where a guy got into a bar fight, left and got a gun from his friend and returned to shoot the people he had been fighting with wounding bystanders in the process before 91, especially since the homicide rate back then was twice what it is today.

Most of these incidents are over far to quickly for law enforcement to intervene so I doubt that greater experience could be the reason for lots of of small shootings appear on your list in recent years but not in earlier ones.  The study you linked to before on the other hand gives a much narrower definition of mass shooting, closer to what is normally meant by the term, but the averages can be thrown off by one or two very large mass shootings like the Oslo massacre.

With such a broad definition of mass shooting we would probably get a better picture by dropping lists of incidents and focusing on gun violence or homicide rates in general, which in Canada have been falling steadily since the 1970s.


Offline Vanto

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Re: Shootings in Hanau, Germany
« Reply #31 on: May 15, 2020, 09:38:30 pm »
Oh hey, I forgot about this thread. Time to fix that:

Again why don't you list the number of school shootings in the US in the last 5 years. How many school shootings in Australia or the UK?

At how many of the school shootings did the school have armed guards? How many times did the armed guards kill or subdue the shooter? How many people died before they did so?

Let me answer your questions with my own questions.

Why are you so fixated on school shootings in particular? Why the last five years specifically? Do you really think a mass shooter would choose to attack a school with armed guards? If armed guards are so ineffective, why did your government let Jewish and Muslim schools hire them? Did you know that only 8 people died in American school shootings last year? Did you know that a single mass stabbing incident at a Chinese school last year equaled that death toll? Did you know that children are hundreds of times more likely to be murdered at home (usually by their own parents) than at school? Did you know that the deadliest school attack in American history was carried out with explosives?

Most important: are you here to seriously discuss this, or are you just trying to catch me in a “gotcha”?

Now, as for Skybison's points:

You're right to point out that people generally don't think of gang-related incidents when they hear the term "mass shooting". However, they're often counted as mass shootings in American crime statistics, so I think it's only fair to do the same when discussing other countries.

Oh, and your noting that Canada's overall gun homicide rates have been dropping since the 70s is proof that you don't need gun bans to reduce gun violence. Thank you for pointing that out.
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Offline Skybison

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Re: Shootings in Hanau, Germany
« Reply #32 on: May 16, 2020, 12:26:06 am »
Okay since you are posting here again I've got a question  for you that's been bugging me

Why did you post that list of Canadian mass shootings at all?

In the post before you gave that list I said that I had already heard the argument that Canada has more mass shootings now, and at length said why I am skeptical of this claim.

Then right after I said that you go "did you know there are more mass shootings in Canada now?" without addressing the counterarguments I had just given, indeed seemingly unaware that I had just said I had heard this claim before.

TBH, it gave me the impression that you aren't paying attention to what others are saying and didn't read my post before responding to it. 

Offline ironbite

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Re: Shootings in Hanau, Germany
« Reply #33 on: May 16, 2020, 07:07:50 pm »
That sounds familiar.

Offline Vanto

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Re: Shootings in Hanau, Germany
« Reply #34 on: May 19, 2020, 08:25:28 pm »
Okay since you are posting here again I've got a question  for you that's been bugging me

Why did you post that list of Canadian mass shootings at all?

In the post before you gave that list I said that I had already heard the argument that Canada has more mass shootings now, and at length said why I am skeptical of this claim.

Then right after I said that you go "did you know there are more mass shootings in Canada now?" without addressing the counterarguments I had just given, indeed seemingly unaware that I had just said I had heard this claim before.

TBH, it gave me the impression that you aren't paying attention to what others are saying and didn't read my post before responding to it.

Looking back, yeah, I did kinda miss that part. Sorry man. I'll try to do better in the future. Let me know if you think I'm not paying attention.
« Last Edit: May 19, 2020, 09:03:01 pm by Vanto »
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Offline davedan

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Re: Shootings in Hanau, Germany
« Reply #35 on: June 01, 2020, 02:23:40 am »
Oh hey, I forgot about this thread. Time to fix that:

Again why don't you list the number of school shootings in the US in the last 5 years. How many school shootings in Australia or the UK?

At how many of the school shootings did the school have armed guards? How many times did the armed guards kill or subdue the shooter? How many people died before they did so?

Let me answer your questions with my own questions.

Why are you so fixated on school shootings in particular? Why the last five years specifically? Do you really think a mass shooter would choose to attack a school with armed guards? If armed guards are so ineffective, why did your government let Jewish and Muslim schools hire them? Did you know that only 8 people died in American school shootings last year? Did you know that a single mass stabbing incident at a Chinese school last year equaled that death toll? Did you know that children are hundreds of times more likely to be murdered at home (usually by their own parents) than at school? Did you know that the deadliest school attack in American history was carried out with explosives?

Most important: are you here to seriously discuss this, or are you just trying to catch me in a “gotcha”?

Now, as for Skybison's points:

You're right to point out that people generally don't think of gang-related incidents when they hear the term "mass shooting". However, they're often counted as mass shootings in American crime statistics, so I think it's only fair to do the same when discussing other countries.

Oh, and your noting that Canada's overall gun homicide rates have been dropping since the 70s is proof that you don't need gun bans to reduce gun violence. Thank you for pointing that out.

Why are you afraid of answering my question?