Author Topic: What About Men?  (Read 344 times)

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Offline davedan

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What About Men?
« on: March 02, 2020, 09:12:21 pm »
I saw this article about the 'What about Men?' phenomenon, which I think is coming from the same place as the 'not all men' stuff. I think it is really interesting that the vitriol is only directed when she runs women's programs.

Interesting that its about what we feel we are entitled to: https://victimfocus.wordpress.com/2018/01/03/stop-asking-me-what-about-men/comment-page-8/#comments

Offline Vanto

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Re: What About Men?
« Reply #1 on: March 03, 2020, 01:04:31 pm »
Yeah, I agree it's interesting... but not for the reasons you think it is.

For starters, she's assuming that her own personal experiences are somehow representative of society as a whole.

Not to mention that there are things she's objectively wrong about:

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Have you EVER in your life seen women kicking off that Movember is sexist? Or that the campaign should include women? Or that focusing on testicular cancer is exclusionary? No. Have you fuck.

https://slate.com/human-interest/2015/11/movember-mustache-campaign-for-prostate-cancer-is-misguided.html

https://www.newstatesman.com/lifestyle/2013/11/why-movember-isnt-all-its-cracked-be

https://www.mcgilldaily.com/2013/11/movember-as-micro-aggression/

https://www.quora.com/Why-are-misogynist-charities-like-Movember-legal-when-they-entirely-ignore-womens-issues

https://twitter.com/estellevw/status/1184725866711900161?lang=en

#Invalid YouTube Link#

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We know that the leading cause of death in young men aged 18-35 is suicide. This is the strongest symptom of a patriarchal society where emotionless males struggle to cope with trauma and feelings, can’t open up, don’t feel safe to talk and become completely overwhelmed by emotions they are taught are ‘feminine’, which further induces shame and stigma.
In all my years I have never seen women jump on those campaigns yelling ‘women commit suicide too, you know!!’ Or ‘what about women?’

Even ignoring her questionable theories, this is also either factually untrue or her tipping her hand about her own ignorance. I have seen many attempts to undermine attention on male suicide with (questionable) claims that women attempt it more.

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Switch it over. Women’s marches. Pussy hats. IWD. Counting dead women. VAWG strategies. Women’s health screening. Women’s reproductive health. Women’s mental health. Rape campaigns. #metoo.

She's really not helping her case here. In her country, rape is defined as "nonconsensual penetration with a penis", meaning that only men (and pre-op transwomen) can legally be considered rapists. This is reflective of the deeply misandristic and all-too-common idea that rape is a crime perpetrated by men upon women.

I'm willing to give her the benefit of the doubt when it comes to how sincere she is about wanting to help men. But she needs to understand that issues like rape, domestic violence and even suicide and homelessness have been treated as gendered issues that primarily (or even only) impact women for decades, sometimes by law. So she shouldn't assume people saying "but what about men?" are sexist or entitled (especially considering that it's not only men who ask that), or that they don't have valid reasons for saying it.

Again, this article was interesting and I thank you for posting it. Though I gotta ask: why do you dislike people saying "not all men?" or "what about men?"
« Last Edit: March 03, 2020, 03:19:48 pm by Vanto »
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Offline davedan

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Re: What About Men?
« Reply #2 on: March 03, 2020, 04:31:22 pm »
Because its whataboutism directed at deflecting from the issue at hand (I mean 'what about' men). It is dismissive and implies that because we are not solving all problems one problem shouldn't be addressed. For instance if you started a homeless shelter in San Francisco it would be objectionable for me to say - yeah that's great but what about all the homeless kids in Bangladesh.

Also I am not sure that you got your Rape laws for England and Wales correct, first hit on google was wikipidea which was:

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Rape is a statutory offence in England and Wales. According to the law, rape is sexual penetration of the vagina, anus, or mouth of another person, with or without force, by a sex organ, other body part, or foreign object, without the consent of the victim. If a victim is forcefully penetrated with an object, this is classed as "Assault by Penetration" (section 2).[1] If the victim is made to penetrate another, the act can be prosecuted as "Causing a person to engage in sexual activity without consent" (section 4).[2] The offence is created by section 1[3] of the Sexual Offences Act 2003:
“    (1) A person (A) commits an offence if—

(a) he intentionally penetrates the vagina, anus or mouth of another person (B) with his penis,

(b) B does not consent to the penetration, and

(c) A does not reasonably believe that B consents.

(2) Whether a belief is reasonable is to be determined having regard to all the circumstances, including any steps A has taken to ascertain whether B consents.

(3) Sections 75 and 76 apply to an offence under this section.

(4) A person guilty of an offence under this section is liable, on conviction on indictment, to imprisonment for life.

How about this, why do you care if there is something which raises a predominantly women's issue to the exclusion of men?


Offline Vanto

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Re: What About Men?
« Reply #3 on: March 03, 2020, 06:37:02 pm »
I got my definition from here:
 
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1)A person (A) commits an offence if—
(a)he intentionally penetrates the vagina, anus or mouth of another person (B) with his penis,
(b)B does not consent to the penetration, and
(c)A does not reasonably believe that B consents.

And I notice that not even your broader definition includes "made to penetrate".

Could you rephrase your other question? Maybe I'm stupid, but I ain't sure what you're asking.
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Offline davedan

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Re: What About Men?
« Reply #4 on: March 03, 2020, 06:49:17 pm »
Yes but you missed the first part:

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Rape is a statutory offence in England and Wales. According to the law, rape is sexual penetration of the vagina, anus, or mouth of another person, with or without force, by a sex organ, other body part, or foreign object, without the consent of the victim.

It then goes on to say there is an offence of a man being made to sexually penetrate another without consent. So in her country it is an offence to penetrate someone (anyone) sexually with 'a sex organ, other body part, or foreign object'. There is further an offence where a woman forces a man to penetrate her against her will. So your point about rape being nonconsensual penetration with a penis is a bit sterile given that it is a different offence.

Likewise lots of places don't have what you in the US call 'statutory rape' but that does not mean it is legal, it is just called a different offence like 'unlawful carnal knowledge'. Now when I was at high school, the definition of rape in Queensland had been expanded to include digital or object rape but 'unlawful carnal knowledge' was restricted purely to men penetrating women. So that for instance it would be a criminal offence for an 18 year old man to have penetrative sex with a 15 year old girl but not an offence for a 45 year old woman to have sex with a 14 year old boy. This was not because 90s Queensland was very 'woke'.

Ok let me try again, why do you feel the need to say 'not all men' or 'what about men' ? When was the last time you felt the need to say 'not all women' or 'what about women' . Or what about crackers?

Offline Vanto

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Re: What About Men?
« Reply #5 on: March 03, 2020, 08:09:00 pm »
Yes but you missed the first part:

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Rape is a statutory offence in England and Wales. According to the law, rape is sexual penetration of the vagina, anus, or mouth of another person, with or without force, by a sex organ, other body part, or foreign object, without the consent of the victim.

It then goes on to say there is an offence of a man being made to sexually penetrate another without consent. So in her country it is an offence to penetrate someone (anyone) sexually with 'a sex organ, other body part, or foreign object'. There is further an offence where a woman forces a man to penetrate her against her will. So your point about rape being nonconsensual penetration with a penis is a bit sterile given that it is a different offence.

Likewise lots of places don't have what you in the US call 'statutory rape' but that does not mean it is legal, it is just called a different offence like 'unlawful carnal knowledge'. Now when I was at high school, the definition of rape in Queensland had been expanded to include digital or object rape but 'unlawful carnal knowledge' was restricted purely to men penetrating women. So that for instance it would be a criminal offence for an 18 year old man to have penetrative sex with a 15 year old girl but not an offence for a 45 year old woman to have sex with a 14 year old boy. This was not because 90s Queensland was very 'woke'.

Ok let me try again, why do you feel the need to say 'not all men' or 'what about men' ? When was the last time you felt the need to say 'not all women' or 'what about women' . Or what about crackers?

1. What first part? I don't see any first part. Are we looking at the same thing?

2. I was already aware that it was still a crime. But there's still a clear and harmful double standard.

3a. Let me demonstrate:

"Ugh, women suck! Fuck those dishonest bitches!"

"Not all women are like that."

"But too many of them are. Decent women know I'm not talking about them."

Reverse the genders, and you have your answer. "Not all men" is usually a response to men being generalized as bad in some way. You might as well complain about a Muslim responding to blatant Islamophobia by saying not all Muslims are violent religious fanatics.

3b. Because men are more likely to be homeless, more likely to commit suicide, and more likely to be victims of violent crime. Because rape and abuse are still widely seen as crimes that are perpetrated by men against women, to the point of being termed "violence against women". Because female victims are often implicitly or even explicitly said to be more worthy of compassion than male ones. Because there's discrimination against men in the legal system, including laws that explicitly discriminate against men. Because despite all this, there are lots of people who call men "privileged" and use that as an excuse to dismiss or belittle men who want these problems addressed.
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Offline Tolpuddle Martyr

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Re: What About Men?
« Reply #6 on: March 04, 2020, 05:19:17 am »
Vanto, her not picking up on the few cases of folks calling movember sexist don't undermine the central point. That focus on women's anything brings out a pseudonymous army of internet asshats who feel wounded that the focus is not equally on men at any point anywhere. As to criminal law in her own country, I don't see how she's responsible for that.

She makes this point.

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Why don’t I get any abuse when I speak and write about men and boys?
Why am I hailed?

Why did we win 6 charity awards and over £300k in the first 18 months of operation?

Why did I end up on every TV channel and radio in the UK? Why can I launch studies and campaigns and videos and appeals for TEF about male mental health and receive ZERO whataboutery comments?

It's a fair point, it doesn't preclude anybody getting annoyed if the focus is on men's issues (i.e movember) but that isn't what the piece is about. It's about abusive commentary that accompanies work with a focus on women and girls.
« Last Edit: March 04, 2020, 05:24:26 am by Tolpuddle Martyr »