Author Topic: First Trump came for Portland  (Read 731 times)

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Offline Vanto

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Re: First Trump came for Portland
« Reply #15 on: July 27, 2020, 01:33:09 am »
That is ONE border patrol guy with a visible badge, and just because he has one does not mean others did.

And the fact is they ALSO threw people into cars, drove them off, gave no indication if their target was arrested or not, isolated them and only released when their target asked for a lawyer.

IMO, all of these fascist street thugs should be unmasked. People who know them deserve to know they're associating with what might as well be Hitler's SS.

1. That's... not exactly a compelling argument. You can talk about hypothetical officers without visible badges all you like, but that's all they are: hypothetical.

2. Maybe I'm being ignorant, but from what I can tell, the only thing wrong in that statement is "gave no indication if their target was arrested or not", and that's assuming O'Shea (I think that's who you're talking about) isn't misremembering.

3. Aaand Godwin. Arresting violent insurrectionists =/= SS crimes against humanity. The fact that you can implicitly compare Trump to Hitler without fear of retribution just shows how wrongheaded your comparison is. Get a sense of proportion. The fact that you want these people "unmasked" so they can be demonized just shows why they were sent in without their names on their uniforms.

You know, I could've sworn that goalpost was a little closer before.

Calling it a goalpost move assumes that the patch that you boxed means anything to the layman. He may as well be completely unmarked because I have not a single fucking clue what any of that means. And likely the same for almost everyone.

As for why we'd want his identification? Oh, I don't know, maybe for the same reason cops are supposed to give their badge numbers? So you can report them for misconduct? Fuck, you're stupid.

Another thing: Yes, unmarked vehicles are standard practice. Doesn't mean they should be.

1. Who says you have to know what it means? I don't know the meanings behind license plate numbers, but I can still jot them down so the car can be identified.

2. I already hinted at this to squirrel boy and three-years-in-the-future, but this is the stated reason why they don't have their names on their uniforms:

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Our personnel are clearly marked as federal LEOs & have unique identifiers. You will not see names on their uniforms b/c these same violent criminals use this information to target them & their families, putting both at risk. As Acting Commissioner, I will not let that happen!

And reactions like this:



Only strengthen his case.

3. Why not? Should cops not be allowed to go undercover?

What's the difference between "wearing something that identifies them but that can't be understood by the average person if they even notice it" and "not wearing anything that identifies them"?

Oh, right. Nothing.

Already addressed above. And I'd like to point out that it's more identification than what Antifa wears.

U.S. charges 18 Portland protesters as it sends tactical police to Seattle

Did you read that link?  It seems to be that they only did that now that they've gotten attention and your link talks about how they are using wildly unnecessary force and needlessly escalating the situation against the will of the local governments and that Trump is threatening to do the same in other left wing cities.

Did you?

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The federal forces have drawn criticism from Democrats and civil liberties groups who allege excessive force and federal overreach by President Donald Trump.

And if these people want the feds out of their cities, all they have to do is protect federal property. Then Trump will have no justification for deploying them.

Also, I can find articles about these people being hit with federal charges from over a week ago.

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I think it's only fair to ask if you have a source for your claim.

Sure here are some stats on the number of people killed by police in the USA
https://www.statista.com/statistics/585152/people-shot-to-death-by-us-police-by-race/

Now how many hundreds of people are protesters killing each year?

Why are you assuming every single one of these shootings was unjustified? And "well, these people kill more" is not a defense. I mean, if I shot some guy for looking at me funny, I wouldn't defend myself by saying some serial killer murdered more people.

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ARAB (All Rioters Are Bastards)

... At this point I don't believe that's an accident.


If you're saying what I think you're saying... yeah, now I get how that can be taken the wrong way. I just wanted to make a parody of this:

All Republicans Are Bastards.

But I'd appreciate you not make any personal attacks on or assumptions about me. If you promise this will be the last time you cast aspersions on my motives, I promise to change it. Fair?
« Last Edit: July 27, 2020, 02:02:12 am by Vanto »
All Rioters Are Bastards

Offline Skybison

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Re: First Trump came for Portland
« Reply #16 on: July 27, 2020, 01:45:36 am »


1. That's... not exactly a compelling argument. You can talk about hypothetical officers without visible badges all you like, but that's all they are: hypothetical.
You say after a single picture where the badge was unreadable proves that all the federal cops were wearing them when the reports say the opposite.  Not very convincing.

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3. Aaand Godwin. Arresting violent insurrectionists =/= SS crimes against humanity. The fact that you can implicitly compare Trump to Hitler without fear of retribution just shows how wrongheaded your comparison is. Get a sense of proportion. The fact that you want these people "unmasked" so they can be demonized just shows why they were sent in without their names on their uniforms.

Trump makes campaign ads of himself as a genocidal supervillain killing his political opponents and is sending federal police to attack mostly non-violent protesters against the will of the local governments who are escalating things out of control with excessive force.  A bit of hyperbole over this isn't a big deal.

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But if that's how you want to play it, why aren't Antifa members wearing badges with their names so they can be held accountable?

How many people do Antifas kill every year?  Because if it isn't hundreds to thousands that is a stupid comparison.

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3. Why not? Should cops not be allowed to go undercover?

A wildly different situation.  These are cops literally grabing phones out of people's hands, throwing them through windows and then saying "The rioters broke a window" as an excuse to start tear gassing everyone.  https://heavy.com/news/2020/07/police-declare-riots-portland/

Seriously this is a new low even for you paragon.

« Last Edit: July 27, 2020, 02:03:33 am by Skybison »

Offline Vanto

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Re: First Trump came for Portland
« Reply #17 on: July 27, 2020, 01:54:28 am »


Um... hello, non sequitur movie reference. Should I post my own?

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Offline Skybison

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Re: First Trump came for Portland
« Reply #18 on: July 27, 2020, 02:04:48 am »
I'm giving you all the respect you deserve.

Offline Vanto

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Re: First Trump came for Portland
« Reply #19 on: July 27, 2020, 02:08:06 am »
I'm giving you all the respect you deserve.

Um... are you OK? Feel like we're talking at cross purposes here.
« Last Edit: July 27, 2020, 02:09:46 am by Vanto »
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Offline Skybison

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Re: First Trump came for Portland
« Reply #20 on: July 27, 2020, 02:13:00 am »
Just for the record, what he said before editing that comment was "go deepthroat a carving knife."

Offline Vanto

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Re: First Trump came for Portland
« Reply #21 on: July 27, 2020, 02:16:51 am »
Just for the record, what he said before editing that comment was "go deepthroat a carving knife."

...Yeah, that was a knee-jerk reaction before I realized I might've been unfair to you and that you may not have meant it the way I assumed. I was already little testy from being accused of being racist, and I figured you were insulting me on top of that. Still, I think you deserve an apology. Sorry.
« Last Edit: July 27, 2020, 02:21:46 am by Vanto »
All Rioters Are Bastards

Offline Cloud3514

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Re: First Trump came for Portland
« Reply #22 on: July 27, 2020, 02:24:53 am »
1. Who says you have to know what it means? I don't know the meanings behind license plate numbers, but I can still jot them down so the car can be identified.

So... who do I report that string of characters to? And how am I supposed to know that's an identification of some sort? You can write down a license plate number and report it instead of a name because it's trivial to know where to report the plate number to. You're expecting me to believe that this string of characters is perfectly sufficient identification when I don't even know what agency this asshole works for.

So, yeah, I've written down a seemingly random string of characters. Now what?

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2. I already hinted at this to squirrel boy and three-years-in-the-future, but this is the stated reason why they don't have their names on their uniforms:

[quote redacted]

And reactions like this:

[image redacted]

Only strengthen his case.

So I went to the Twitter account that allegedly posted that Tweet. And that Tweet has either been deleted or this is a fake. More likely deleted, in fairness. However, that's completely beside the point.

Do you have proof that people have tried to track down the friends and families of law enforcement? A random Tweet from one Twitter account is not proof that this is a problem. But sure, keep licking those boots and taking what law enforcement officials are saying at face value.

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But if that's how you want to play it, why aren't Antifa members wearing badges with their names so they can be held accountable?

This is two fallacious arguments in one.

False equivalence. Antifa doesn't exist as an organized group and is literally only defined by an opposition to fascism. They're not legally empowered to arrest people off the streets without clear identification or explanation for arrest. They're also not legally empowered to arbitrarily declare when a protest becomes a riot and use tear gas and ballistic weaponry to disperse a crowd.

And

Tu quoque. Even if it wasn't a false equivalence, yeah, I can't imagine why I expect fucking law enforcement to be held to higher standards of transparency and accountability than a "group" that is literally only defined by an opposition to fascism.

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3. Why not? Should cops not be allowed to go undercover?

This is another fallacious argument: Nonsequitur. You're not responding to the point I made. The point I made is that just because it is standard practice to use unmarked vehicles when patrolling, doesn't mean it should be. No one said anything about police going undercover. Nor, just to nip in the bud, did I say that there aren't situations where the discretion afforded by unmarked vehicles isn't a good idea. Patrolling the streets and responding to protests? Why do they need to be discreet for that?
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Offline niam2023

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Re: First Trump came for Portland
« Reply #23 on: July 27, 2020, 02:28:06 am »
Are any of us surprised that Vanto's playing fascist cheerleader?

Go get your stockings and pom poms on, you ridiculous hack.
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Offline davedan

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Re: First Trump came for Portland
« Reply #24 on: July 27, 2020, 02:34:20 am »
Shame is actually a strong technique against authoritarianism. That's why police forces behave worse when they police places they don't actually live in

Offline Cloud3514

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Re: First Trump came for Portland
« Reply #25 on: July 27, 2020, 02:38:58 am »
So... I just noticed something:

All Rioters Are Bastards.

Emphasis mine. Make of that what you will.
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Offline Vanto

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Re: First Trump came for Portland
« Reply #26 on: July 27, 2020, 02:48:29 am »
1. Who says you have to know what it means? I don't know the meanings behind license plate numbers, but I can still jot them down so the car can be identified.

So... who do I report that string of characters to? And how am I supposed to know that's an identification of some sort? You can write down a license plate number and report it instead of a name because it's trivial to know where to report the plate number to. You're expecting me to believe that this string of characters is perfectly sufficient identification when I don't even know what agency this asshole works for.

So, yeah, I've written down a seemingly random string of characters. Now what?

Quote
2. I already hinted at this to squirrel boy and three-years-in-the-future, but this is the stated reason why they don't have their names on their uniforms:

[quote redacted]

And reactions like this:

[image redacted]

Only strengthen his case.

So I went to the Twitter account that allegedly posted that Tweet. And that Tweet has either been deleted or this is a fake. More likely deleted, in fairness. However, that's completely beside the point.

Do you have proof that people have tried to track down the friends and families of law enforcement? A random Tweet from one Twitter account is not proof that this is a problem. But sure, keep licking those boots and taking what law enforcement officials are saying at face value.

Quote
But if that's how you want to play it, why aren't Antifa members wearing badges with their names so they can be held accountable?

This is two fallacious arguments in one.

False equivalence. Antifa doesn't exist as an organized group and is literally only defined by an opposition to fascism. They're not legally empowered to arrest people off the streets without clear identification or explanation for arrest. They're also not legally empowered to arbitrarily declare when a protest becomes a riot and use tear gas and ballistic weaponry to disperse a crowd.

And

Tu quoque. Even if it wasn't a false equivalence, yeah, I can't imagine why I expect fucking law enforcement to be held to higher standards of transparency and accountability than a "group" that is literally only defined by an opposition to fascism.

Quote
3. Why not? Should cops not be allowed to go undercover?

This is another fallacious argument: Nonsequitur. You're not responding to the point I made. The point I made is that just because it is standard practice to use unmarked vehicles when patrolling, doesn't mean it should be. No one said anything about police going undercover. Nor, just to nip in the bud, did I say that there aren't situations where the discretion afforded by unmarked vehicles isn't a good idea. Patrolling the streets and responding to protests? Why do they need to be discreet for that?

1. You know, that's actually a good question. I don't know how you would report it, but I can look it up for you if you'd like.

2. No, I don't. But could you please stop the personal attacks?

3. Antifa may not have the hierarchies typically associated with organizations, but that doesn't mean they're not organized. They have uniforms, flags, social media accounts, handbooks, and merchandise. Maybe they're not a single, unitary organization, but there hasn't been a unified Klan since the 40s. They are defined by more than just opposition to fascism.

4. Well, unless they make it possible to hold individual members accountable, they will inevitably be considered collectively responsible. Especially if said individual members can't be identified.

5. Maybe so they don't get singled out for attack?

Are any of us surprised that Vanto's playing fascist cheerleader?

Go get your stockings and pom poms on, you ridiculous hack.

You haven't proved fascism is happening.

Shame is actually a strong technique against authoritarianism. That's why police forces behave worse when they police places they don't actually live in

...Not sure what that has to do with anything, but OK.

So... I just noticed something:

All Rioters Are Bastards.

Emphasis mine. Make of that what you will.

I didn't think of that. I based it on this:

All Republicans Are Bastards.

The fact that it could be taken that way never crossed my mind, I assure you.
« Last Edit: July 27, 2020, 02:50:00 am by Vanto »
All Rioters Are Bastards

Offline Skybison

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Re: First Trump came for Portland
« Reply #27 on: July 27, 2020, 02:55:00 am »
@Cloud

I'd consider that to be a stretch and say it's probably just a coincidence, except he specified the acronym himself.

Offline Vanto

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Re: First Trump came for Portland
« Reply #28 on: July 27, 2020, 02:58:41 am »
@Cloud

I'd consider that to be a stretch and say it's probably just a coincidence, except he specified the acronym himself.

Again, I didn't think of how it could be taken. I was thinking in terms of each individual letter, kind of like how CIA is pronounced "sea-eye-a" rather than "sea-uh". We all make mistakes.
« Last Edit: July 27, 2020, 03:03:11 am by Vanto »
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Offline Cloud3514

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Re: First Trump came for Portland
« Reply #29 on: July 27, 2020, 03:08:42 am »
1. You know, that's actually a good question. I don't know how you would report it, but I can look it up for you if you'd like.

2. No, I don't. But could you please stop the personal attacks?

In other words: You're arguing on baseless grounds. You can just fucking admit that you're wrong.

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3. Antifa may not have the hierarchies typically associated with organizations, but that doesn't mean they're not organized. They have uniforms, flags, social media accounts, handbooks, and merchandise. Maybe they're not a single, unitary organization, but there hasn't been a unified Klan since the 40s. They are defined by more than just opposition to fascism.

4. Well, unless they make it possible to hold individual members accountable, they will inevitably be considered collectively responsible. Especially if said individual members can't be identified.

5. Maybe so they don't get singled out for attack?

Yeah, I'm not going to bother responding to the rest. You've already admitted that you can't back up half of your claims. You're not arguing in good faith. I am under no obligation to waste my time with you, so I won't.
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